JoomlArt Forums 32,862 posts

[malestorm Friend malestormJoin date: December 2007Posts: 46Downloads:0Uploads:1 Thanks: 8 Thanked: 3 times in 1 posts]

#139383

So many of the questions in the forums could be avoided and self-answered if Joomlart provided its members with backend administrator access to the demo system. Some other Joomla extension developers do this and I think it cuts way down on the questions that need to be answered in the forums. I know it would cut down on my questions and make my implementations go faster. While providing the Quickstart package is nice for new systems, many of us just cannot install the quickstarts.

If the backend could not be secured from changes, then the demo system could be automatically refreshed every hour or so (as some other module developers do.)

1 user says Thank You to malestorm for this useful post

1. cgc0202

[swemmel Friend swemmelJoin date: February 2006Posts: 794Downloads:34Uploads:53 Thanks: 36 Thanked: 64 times in 1 posts]

#299659

malestorm;119061So many of the questions in the forums could be avoided and self-answered if Joomlart provided its members with backend administrator access to the demo system. Some other Joomla extension developers do this and I think it cuts way down on the questions that need to be answered in the forums. I know it would cut down on my questions and make my implementations go faster. While providing the Quickstart package is nice for new systems, many of us just cannot install the quickstarts.

If the backend could not be secured from changes, then the demo system could be automatically refreshed every hour or so (as some other module developers do.)

People can always install the Quickstart package on a local server to investigate the backend.

Kind Regards,
Peter

[TomC Moderator TomCJoin date: October 2014Posts: 14077Downloads:58Uploads:137 Thanks: 948 Thanked: 3155 times in 2495 posts]

#299668

<em>@malestorm 119061 wrote:</em><blockquote> While providing the Quickstart package is nice for new systems, many of us just cannot install the quickstarts.
</blockquote>
I don’t understand why not – as swemmel indicated, one only needs to set up a localhost server and install / test the template that way. Either that, or install the quickstart on a subdomain on your hosted server account.

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#299704

<em>@malestorm 119061 wrote:</em><blockquote>So many of the questions in the forums could be avoided and self-answered if Joomlart provided its members with backend administrator access to the demo system. Some other Joomla extension developers do this and I think it cuts way down on the questions that need to be answered in the forums. I know it would cut down on my questions and make my implementations go faster. While providing the Quickstart package is nice for new systems, many of us just cannot install the quickstarts.

If the backend could not be secured from changes, then the demo system could be automatically refreshed every hour or so (as some other module developers do.)</blockquote>

malestorm,

I strongly endorse this. Indeed, I have seen it done by a number of vendors, outside of Joomla and, if I am not mistaken, a few vendors that create extensions (it has been awhile since I selected one).

I don’t think any of the major Joomla templates developer do it. They are so focused on churning as many templates as possible — rather than perfecting a few basic templates that in reality, with good manual, tutorials and technical support could then be modified much more systematically by each member into a more unique website.

It is true that it is easy to install a QuickStart kit, as swemmel and tcraw indicated, but if you noticed many have problems with the process themselves, or there are other factors, e.g., server issues, hosting service plan, etc., that complicate.

The arising complicating problems might be blamed improperly to Joomla or the Joomlart templates. And fully-functional Demo (FrontEnd and BackEnd) will disprove this.

With a fully functional Demo template — both FrontEnd and BackEnd — it would even be much easier for members to try something working before any compounding issues that might affect an installation complicates the matter.

Moreover, it is usually how the Admin page functions that determines how well conceived a product is. I bought the iJoomla News and I had a chance to look at the iJoomla Magazine also.

The Magazine and News Demos that Merav created are light years ahead of Teline II, in terms of their features. The iJoomla Magazine is truly what an online magazine should look like. But, if you look inside, you really need to know quite a bit about webdesign and scripting to create a decent page. Also, it still would be best serve with a ready made template.

Had I had a chance to view the Demo of its admin page, I am not sure I would have bought it.

QuickStart is not a Practical Option for JM Magento templates

The other situation is that of the JM Magento templates — until you buy it, you cannot try it. At $200 for no restrictions license, or the high cost of subscription, it is too high a price just to know it is working. As it is, this thread already indicates how much is needed before a JM Magento template would be user friendly.

Cornelio

[Arvind Chauhan Moderator Arvind ChauhanJoin date: September 2014Posts: 3835Downloads:74Uploads:92 Thanks: 1240 Thanked: 1334 times in 848 posts]

#299708

The idea isn’t bad, however, one should also know or learn to install quickstart in localhost or on server. Even if one can look into the demo backend, to replicate one may again need the quickstart.

What’s the big deal about quickstart? the procedure is same as installing Joomla. For me learning joomla is as simple as learning a bicycle. One is going to fall here and there, but then only will learn to balance.

For newbies, everything is difficult, when i started i threw away joomla so many times, eventually i learned. On a personal note getting a quickstart is no big deal, for me it takes max of 5 minutes to get a quickstart up and running on localhost, that too using xampp with separate database and user creation.

the only point that bugs me about quickstart is that the size is big and download takes time, as i am on slow connection.

regards

arvind.

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#299712

<em>@drarvindc 122315 wrote:</em><blockquote>The idea isn’t bad, however, one should also know or learn to install quickstart in localhost or on server. Even if one can look into the demo backend, to replicate one may again need the quickstart.

What’s the big deal about quickstart? the procedure is same as installing Joomla. For me learning joomla is as simple as learning a bicycle. One is going to fall here and there, but then only will learn to balance.

For newbies, everything is difficult, when i started i threw away joomla so many times, eventually i learned. On a personal note getting a quickstart is no big deal, for me it takes max of 5 minutes to get a quickstart up and running on localhost, that too using xampp with separate database and user creation.

the only point that bugs me about quickstart is that the size is big and download takes time, as i am on slow connection.

regards

arvind.</blockquote>

Hi arvind,

If the quickstart is free, which is possible with JA Templates. But I must repeat, if there is the equivalent, not a practical thing to do with the new set of JM Magento templates — very costly membership or single license.

Also, one can even be very experienced with quickstarts, I can almost do it even when very sleepy. But sometimes, with a number of templates, you really wanted to try (just like when someone buys a car) to test drive it, before you buy or get one for actual use.

And I agree with your concern, with the huge sizes, in some countries, diskspace and bandwidth are very costly, apart from being slow. We should not forget that it involves creating databases also. Then, you have to delete them, in case you are not too happy. I have quire a few installations just to try. And, they litter some of my sites. I spent quite a bit of time deleting them (almost forever in slow shared servers) when there are a lot.

So, there are pros and cons. The main positive for the vendor is that it could state: Look, the dmo is working. It must be something in your systems (servers, computer, etc.) or what you did that caused a problem.

Cornelio

[Arvind Chauhan Moderator Arvind ChauhanJoin date: September 2014Posts: 3835Downloads:74Uploads:92 Thanks: 1240 Thanked: 1334 times in 848 posts]

#299715

<em>@cgc0202 122319 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hi arvind,

If the quickstart is free, which is possible with JA Templates. But I must repeat, if there is the equivalent, not a practical thing to do with the new set of JM Magento templates — very costly membership or single license.

Also, one can even be very experienced with quickstarts, I can almost do it even when very sleepy. But sometimes, with a number of templates, you really wanted to try (just like when someone buys a car) to test drive it, before you buy or get one for actual use.

And I agree with your concern, with the huge sizes, in some countries, diskspace and bandwidth are very costly, apart from being slow. We should not forget that it involves creating databases also. Then, you have to delete them, in case you are not too happy. I have quire a few installations just to try. And, they litter some of my sites. I spent quite a bit of time deleting them (almost forever in slow shared servers) when there are a lot.

So, there are pros and cons. The main positive for the vendor is that it could state: Look, the dmo is working. It must be something in your systems (servers, computer, etc.) or what you did that caused a problem.

Cornelio</blockquote>

Hey Cornelio,

Yup i agree with each and every word you said, you hit the right spot, may be i did not realise this earlier. You got my vote on this.

Even i face the same problems, i have multiple directories / databases about whom i am not sure and so scared to delete them.

I remember in my initial days i used to test drive the demos at http://php.opensourcecms.com/ for cms. If they can offer it for cms, certainly joomlart should be able to offer similar auto refreshing demo’s for the templates.

Thanks for bringing me to my senses.

regards

arvind

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#299724

<em>@drarvindc 122322 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hey Cornelio,

Yup i agree with each and every word you said, you hit the right spot, may be i did not realise this earlier. You got my vote on this.

Even i face the same problems, i have multiple directories / databases about whom i am not sure and so scared to delete them.

I remember in my initial days i used to test drive the demos at http://php.opensourcecms.com/ for cms. If they can offer it for cms, certainly joomlart should be able to offer similar auto refreshing demo’s for the templates.

Thanks for bringing me to my senses.

regards

arvind</blockquote>

Hi Arvind,

It brings me back to the other project we wanted to do (optimization)*** and ties it to this. Right now, as I alluded to above and in some of my posts, I am forced to use a very old iMac (forgot now if I bought it in 1998 or early 1999) — no longer supported by Apple. The OS cannot be further upgraded — well unless I do a lot of hacking which I do not feel competent to do.

I have a cable connection (up to 3Mb I think), but because of the limitations of the computer, OS (8.6) and browser. It is so so slow. It freezes when I try to access my own “page here”. And the old Netscape I have in this computer shuts down when I access photo rich sites.

If this is a struggle, imagine how much struggle it would be to perform a QuickStart.

A number have commented that Joomla is fast enough, so they are not too kin about optimization — but I am not sure if they ever used 56kbaud connections or less. We forget sometimes that the rest of world is not always like Europe, US, and other more technologically advanced countries.

Cornelio

***By the way, I have already uploaded four “QuickStarts” more than a week ago, after we discussed the optimization experiments; but there were complications when I requested my hosting service to move my sites — like you stated above, difficult to decide what to delete when you created so many sites already. This compounded the integration, with same usernames used in another server to the one where I migrated them. I have started checking fidelity of transfer.

When I wanted to install the QuickStarts, I found out Joomla just released a new update. Then daily life intrudes. Suddenly, a simple stuff (a short circuit of the chord to battery charger) rendered my old Notebook, currently my main computer unavailable. Thus, more delays. And, I cannot do anything until I have time to go to the Apple store.

This back to old technology rendered me more sensitive and acute to what we take for granted in countries like the US.

So, I hope I will have the time to install the sites for the optimization project this weekend, but April 15th is looming – tax time in the US. I need 48 hours a day.

Cornelio

[scotty Friend scottyJoin date: March 2008Posts: 2339Downloads:0Uploads:13 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 827 times in 595 posts]

#299746

What’s the big deal about quickstart? the procedure is same as installing Joomla.

Amazing though, no matter how many times you say it – people just can’t get the concept.

If I were Joomlart I would not be in favor of setting every Tom, Dick, And Harry free on my beautiful demo sites. Who knows what would be placed in the content. ‘Don’t let them add content’ I hear you say…. well then just might as well show them a screenshot. 🙂

Joomlart do have a cool ‘generate your own demo’ feature on their extensions demo. Which gives every user their own (limited) site but to give this feature to the templates would be a MASSIVE strain on the server(s).

[TomC Moderator TomCJoin date: October 2014Posts: 14077Downloads:58Uploads:137 Thanks: 948 Thanked: 3155 times in 2495 posts]

#299763

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t both Joomla.org and MagentoCommerce.com have a demo version of the administration available for testing each system?

[scotty Friend scottyJoin date: March 2008Posts: 2339Downloads:0Uploads:13 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 827 times in 595 posts]

#299771

Joomla.org has a “modified so as to not allow abuse” version. Not sure what that means exactly.

[jsliao Friend jsliaoJoin date: April 2008Posts: 817Downloads:0Uploads:12 Thanks: 25 Thanked: 236 times in 210 posts]

#300226

Usually, what is done in such cases is to firstly modify the core files such that features that might implicate security cannot be accessed. eg, installation of components/modules/plugins, changing the admin password, creating additional admin accounts, editing of php files, etc

Also, these demo backend normally work on a timer meaning that they will ‘refresh’ at a given time interval, say 1 hour. and everything will be reverted to its default state.

(just realised threadstarted already mentioned all of the above, LOL)

With that being said, I do not really see such a feature being necessary in the case of normal users who are asking the questions because they would already have the template installed and running before they would start asking questions? If that’s the case, they could easily make the changes or test on their own installations?

This feature however would be a really great addition to those who are helping other people out. That way, one could make changes to the demo site or test out the solutions they have in mind for other people using the demo site without needing to install the template quickstarts just so to help people out. I am sure we would see much more ‘helpers’ in the forums and answers being provided more quickly if such a feature was implemented.

1 user says Thank You to jsliao for this useful post

1. cgc0202

[ShannonN Friend ShannonNJoin date: July 2006Posts: 1947Downloads:0Uploads:9 Thanks: 16 Thanked: 172 times in 49 posts]

#300470

jsliao;122941Usually, what is done in such cases is to firstly modify the core files such that features that might implicate security cannot be accessed. eg, installation of components/modules/plugins, changing the admin password, creating additional admin accounts, editing of php files, etc

Also, these demo backend normally work on a timer meaning that they will ‘refresh’ at a given time interval, say 1 hour. and everything will be reverted to its default state.

(just realised threadstarted already mentioned all of the above, LOL)

With that being said, I do not really see such a feature being necessary in the case of normal users who are asking the questions because they would already have the template installed and running before they would start asking questions? If that’s the case, they could easily make the changes or test on their own installations?

This feature however would be a really great addition to those who are helping other people out. That way, one could make changes to the demo site or test out the solutions they have in mind for other people using the demo site without needing to install the template quickstarts just so to help people out. I am sure we would see much more ‘helpers’ in the forums and answers being provided more quickly if such a feature was implemented.

All good stuff, but isn’t the main problem with many of the requests, The end user doesn’t have the full knowledge of the template or JA extension(s) to ‘drive’ it properly, often due to lack of clear documentation, I think if JA really developed a fully guide and explanation of it’s Template together with the installed extensions and how they work, interact etc.

It would halve the requests here. Most users are capable of reading a decent guide and having a go before requesting help, but currently the docs are so poorly written if at all, it’s quicker to ask as someone else has been there done that.

Just hoping JA will address this soon
ShannonN

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#300477

There are valid points raised by many here.

For example, I use the QuickStart kit for all my fresh installs — it is one of the services that Joomlart offers not provided by the other template company I have used. It not only saves time, it also avoids many mistakes.

The point about the Demo is just as valid, as noted in previous posts and reinforced by the perspective of jsliao, as one who answered many questions. And, the Demo must be the latest. For example. I was trying to explain to someone that her(his) problem might arise from some issues with the latest version of the Teline II v1.6. I sure did experienced it, and this was corroborated by another thread here already. I had to reintall another Teline II QuickStart myself because as a proof to persuade someone that his(her) layout problems might arise from existing errors with the CSS tags.

Scotty raised the issue on server usage. That is true but only to an extent. I assume that Joomlart has a dedicated server powerful enough to handle a few thousand simultaneous visitors — dedicated servers cause a few thousand dollars a year.

If it the server is not powerful enough, Joomlart can limit their use to paying customers. As of now there are less than eight thousand paying customers (dramatically down from the high 15,000 last year but this might be partly due to the world recession).

In reality, there are less than a few at most in the hundreds accessing the Joomlart forum, at each moment. I expect there would even be less customers accessing a specific template, at any given time, and more than likely not accessign the same features to cause conflict. In case bandwidth usage become an issue, Joomlart can restrict frequency of usage by each paying member.

Cornelio

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#300479

I agree also with the issues raised by ShannonN. In fact, during the height of all the problems with Teline II last year, Chris and I, started creating tutorials for non-English speaking (specifically French) customers. Anavalisse saw our efforts and it inspired her to write the Spanish version of the manual. It helped quite a few Spanish speaking members.

I do not expect Joomlart to be preparing non-English manuals but I think that many of the questions being asked would diminish greatly if there are well written manuals, tutorials and FAQs. That was my experience with other companies.

Joomlart must acknowledge that many of their staff are not native English speakers. Apart from this, writing manuals for skilled programmers or experienced website creators would be different from trying to communicate with the average customers here. I include myself in the latter group. As such, Joomlart must consult (and even pay) others to help them prepare better manuals, tutorials and FAQs. Such resources cannot be replaced by the random voluntary efforts done by a few here.

During a confrontation with Chris, myself, and other members, Joomlart raised the defense that it is not their obligation to provide support for any question beyond the templates. I have a different perspective on this considering that Joomlart is making money through the back of many of these open source softwares. But that is a discussion for another time.

However, as an individual wanting to create a website and with limited programming background, it will not do me any good to have a good template if I do not have the proper guidance to understand matters that affect creation of good site beyond a good template.

The differing perspective of Joomlart and the needs of customers must be addressed. Otherwise, there will always be grumbling around more than what is necessary.

Cornelio

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