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[mj1256 Friend mj1256Join date: June 2007Posts: 1473Downloads:10Uploads:35 Thanks: 84 Thanked: 225 times in 118 posts]

#266116

I just want to let you all know that I am following along with your discussion.

add this to my list of concerns

from bossep
<blockquote>
IF however a call to a JA server is done every time someone views our page or a “hidden” reference to JA is present then it is highly unethical. Same thing or even worse, that our site goes down because joomlarts.com license server is down.</blockquote>

do we form a joomlart group
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/group.php

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#266117

Well the statement that without the domain being registered, the template would not function is a very clear indication that there will be a call home function. There is no other way this to be done (hmz, except maybe license keys, which would mean a lot of stuff will be encoded).

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#266118

<em>@VisiGod 74469 wrote:</em><blockquote>Well, I use Eclipse, either nothing.
But still … the function is there 🙁

What I am more afraid of is that this file ja_templatetools_1.5.php IS NOT SECURED.

It lacks the defined( ‘_JEXEC’ ) or die( ‘Restricted access’ );
Which means, it is very possible to be run remotely.</blockquote>

I start to be real scizofrenic here and my normal positive thinking is fading FAST.

I just hate to think this but, Could this be on purpose? I hope is just sloppy coding!

Bosse

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#266119

Not a bad idea MJ!
Who takes the initiative and will it not be deleated if we get to critical?

Bosse

<em>@mj1256 74487 wrote:</em><blockquote>I just want to let you all know that I am following along with your discussion.

add this to my list of concerns

from bossep

do we form a joomlart group
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/group.php</blockquote>

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#266121

<em>@perdu 74479 wrote:</em><blockquote>
<em>@VisiGod 74476 wrote:</em><blockquote>Well, there is still no evidence that this function is called (used) and it exists only in the last template.</blockquote>

It doesn’t really matter whether it’s already in use or not it’s just extremely alarming that this code can access and send data about the admin account to Joomlart.

If that’s what it does then think that this code violates quite a few rights including my privacy – as a member I downloaded and installed this template on my own personal web server without anything anywhere on JA warning me that by doing so the admin account on my web space would be compromised and data from my database sent anonymously back to JA.

I also can’t believe that there is so much concern and discussion over this and not one word of response from JA, it’s a complete disgrace.</blockquote>

Hi perdu,

It matters in the concerted effort to counter the adverse impact of the “Call Home” policy, if Joomlart does not address the concern of members.

Why is this significant?

I was the one who asked VisiGod the question that led to his answer, that you quoted.

From my own investigation of postings in the Joomlart Forum — from 20080618-20080729 — more than 45% of the total postings were from the Teline II Forum, and ten (10) of the top templates contribute about 80% of the total postings.

Assuming the total postings is reflective of the % of users of the respective templates (see note below), then these old templates are not yet affected by the “Call Home” scripts.

How to use the aforementioned information

If the finding of VisiGod is correct:

<em>@VisiGod 74476 wrote:</em><blockquote>Well, there is still no evidence that this function is called (used) and it exists only in the last template.</blockquote>

then one strategy is to download as soon as possible the old versions of the template that you use — before Joomlart retroactively applies this “Call Home” function to old templates.

In fact, I kept copies of the old versions for Teline II up to Teline II v1.5, since I use the Teline II template mainly — provided I use the versions of Teline II v1.5 and upgrade the Joomla only, I will not be affected by the “Call Home” function.

You should do the same with the template that you develop.

Cornelio

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#266122

<em>@VisiGod 74488 wrote:</em><blockquote>Well the statement that without the domain being registered, the template would not function is a very clear indication that there will be a call home function. There is no other way this to be done (hmz, except maybe license keys, which would mean a lot of stuff will be encoded).</blockquote>

Well I do think this could be dealt with in a better or more proper way. I dont think I entrust JA to give me ANY encoded script at all. I do think they have to figure out somthing compleatly new to earn our respect again.

I do not mind register my domains or my clients in a secure DB at JA with an encoded string someware that identify me type Google API Key.
I had probably NOT been to critical on this if it had been implemented in the ADMIN section. Lets say with a one time call to enter my reg key and get another in return, paired keys. Well you probably get my drift.

Bosse

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#266123

I get it, but this solution would not work in the terms of:
“if your template is not registered, it would not work” 🙂

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#266124

Strategy 2: Joomlart customers must unite to come up with concrete and effective solutions.

<em>@mj1256 74487 wrote:</em><blockquote>I just want to let you all know that I am following along with your discussion.

add this to my list of concerns

do we form a joomlart group
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/group.php</blockquote>

I already have two major threads that were deleted, and quite a few responses that were deleted also. Moreover, I was warned in PM not to fight back and was advised by several people to submit my more sensitive suggestions only via PM.

A current thread was “moderated” by Hung to delete the Poll:

So, since we are not getting any feedback here from Joomlart, my own preference is to bring this discussion outside of the Joomlart Forum.

By doing this, we do not have to worry of any Censorship by the policies of Joomlart.

More importantly we are free to find solutions that address our concerns. My own preference is that we find solutions that will address both our concerns and at the same time take into consideration the right of Joomlart to protect their copyright for their own creations.

When we have a “united front”, we then have more bargaining power to discuss our concerns with Joomlart. And, if Joomlart remains recalcitrant, each of us has to take what is in our best interest.

If any of you are interested, to discuss this outside of the Joomlart Forum, for reasons indicated above, please PM me and provide an email address.

Cornelio

N.B.

Note to Joomlart and customers:

The outside gruoup that I am thinking about is meant to be constructive. I am not interested with any anti-smear campaign against Joomlart or any template company. This is not to mean that we will restrain ourselves from criticizing Joomlart or any company, if the criticism is valid.

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#266125

<em>@VisiGod 74495 wrote:</em><blockquote>I get it, but this solution would not work in the terms of:
“if your template is not registered, it would not work” :)</blockquote>

Oups forgot THAT little statement! But I think it might be possible at least in a crude way.
At least better than a call home each time someone opens my already heavy (redundant code) loaded site.

Bosse

BTW I do think this with call home hidden backlinks, etc. Should be a Joomla policy issue if it is not already.

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#266128

<em>@VisiGod 74495 wrote:</em><blockquote>I get it, but this solution would not work in the terms of:
“if your template is not registered, it would not work” :)</blockquote>

Which post are you addressing VisiGod?

There are solutions to any issue, if we take the time to analyze them more objectively. 🙂

We just have to be creative. I have been thinking about this issue for awhile. They require the concerted effort from members to make them happen though.

I have some ideas that I do not want to waste time posting here since it may just be unread or censored by Joomlart.

Cornelio

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#266129

I don’t remember the exact thread, but it was quoted few times (this was a statement by JA).
As explained above, this is mostly possible through:
A. Call home (most probable)
– The question is could it be removed?
– Another question is if not, what happens if the license server is gone?
– If it could be removed, it could be removed for unauthorized usage as well, which makes the whole story senseless.
– What is the assurance that the data from the “call home” would not be used for something different than just license checks?

B. Encryption and license keys
– In order the template to not work if it is not licensed, this means that even parts of the index.php should be encrypted.
– By not providing the source files (which if done will make the encryption senseless), there is a breach of the GPL.
– This may require putting additional software (i.e. IonCube loaders)

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#266130

Cornelio,

I do agree with you on most of your points. I have been a bit defensive on this but must admit that you have more than one point.
But I think it is a shame that JA senior staff or any one for that matter pays a slight attention to this.
I start to get the feeling that Hung is a masochist making things worse by not addressing the issues when it gets heated.
I also think it is a shame that we the PAYING users actually are thinking that we need to discuss JA issues outside of this forum.
I could probably set up one of my spare domains for some kind of forum. But I do feel that I might as well just forget the money I spent for my developer license (I did buy this license to support JA) and go else ware. There MUST be an alternative to Teline and other templates out there!

Bosse

[perdu Friend perduJoin date: June 2007Posts: 227Downloads:0Uploads:26 Thanks: 10 Thanked: 20 times in 1 posts]

#266131

<blockquote>Hi perdu, It matters in the concerted effort to counter the adverse impact of the “Call Home” policy, if Joomlart does not address the concern of members.</blockquote>
Hi Cornelio, believe me I know it matters, but what I meant was that regardless of whether or not it was actually being used it’s still a violation that it was hidden away there in the first place.
JA stating that there will be a change to the licensing system is not good enough. If they want to conceal code like this in their templates then there should be a clear warning notice prior to downloading.

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#266132

<em>@bossep 74502 wrote:</em><blockquote>Cornelio,

I do agree with you on most of your points. I have been a bit defensive on this but must admit that you have more than one point.
But I think it is a shame that JA senior staff or any one for that matter pays a slight attention to this.
I start to get the feeling that Hung is a masochist making things worse by not addressing the issues when it gets heated.
I also think it is a shame that we the PAYING users actually are thinking that we need to discuss JA issues outside of this forum.
I could probably set up one of my spare domains for some kind of forum. But I do feel that I might as well just forget the money I spent for my developer license (I did buy this license to support JA) and go else ware. There MUST be an alternative to Teline and other templates out there!

Bosse</blockquote>
Hehe, there is in fact 🙂

I remember a commercial templates designer stating about the distribution of his work on warez sites: “I can’t stop them, there will be always someone stealing. I prefer to use my energy in production of more quality products, that will actually bring me more money, new and happy clients, rather than fighting the warez.”

When the quality appears to be a huge issue here, two questions come to my mind:
– Why JA doesn’t spend this energy in improving quality rather than fighting with the wind mills 🙂
– Warez sites and illegal staff actually offers something that pretty much scares some commercial developers – people can look at the quality of the product before purchasing (I know a lot of people do that, they never use illegal staff on production sites, but test the paid products illegally). The demos look fine, but if the client encouters “illegally” all the issues we also have here (legally), is he actually going to become a club member? You can answer this question yourself. 😛

1 user says Thank You to VisiGod for this useful post

1. cgc0202

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#266133

Strategy 3: A consumer report for website creators, designers and developers

<em>@bossep 74494 wrote:</em><blockquote>I do think they have to figure out somthing compleatly new to earn our respect again.

Bosse</blockquote>

We should think outside of the box in addressing this issue and other issues that we encounter whether we are using Joomlart or any template from other template companies.

We should not just be passive and just be passive — just reacting. We must be pro-active to ensure that no template company will simply ignore our concerns.

If you have been a member of other template companies, used their Forums and used their templates, they have problems too — some related to those we encounter with Joomlart.

And, Joomlart is not the only one causing the problems for us. Joomla itself is the source of many of the problems, as well as shitty browsers like Internet Explorer.

We have to recognize all these sources of our problems. And, we need to work together to solve these.

Cornelio

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