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[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#294044

<em>@scotty 115351 wrote:</em><blockquote>You edit the index.php in any way you see fit. And you can remove the footer if you wish. But…

Joomlart did design the CSS. They did provide the images, and they did script the formatting markup. All the essential elements of a template, non-code elements.[/quote]
I am not saying these are not.

<blockquote>As per the text on the Joomla page… “the authors can license this in ANY way they see fit”! Joomart license agreement states you must leave ‘Designed by Joomlart’ on the front end.</blockquote>
I agree with the Joomlart license for all images, css, js files. However I am supposed to be free to change the index.php (and other files that interact with the Joomla! core) in any way I want. Including if want to remove the designed by. Joomlart in that way is not in compliance with the GPL and I asked for clearance, if this is their policy? If they are not compliant with the GPL for the files interacting with the core of Joomla!, their products are not compliance.
I am not going to repeat the whole GPL debate over the Joomla.org forums (you can find it yourself).

<blockquote>I don’t see how there is any confusion over this.</blockquote>
The confusion is pretty simple. I want to know if Joomlart products are in compliance with the Joomla! license (and the way of application chosen by the Joomla! core team) or not.

<blockquote>I am surprised that Joomla.org decide to use the GNU/GPL license system and then say ‘In our opinion…‘ as if they are taking their own interpretation of the license. If they were going to do this then they should have just come up with their own license in the first place.</blockquote>
See the GPL debate about it.

<blockquote>At the end of the day it’s all irrelevent.</blockquote>
No, it is relevant as it is a very important change of the terms here.

<blockquote>If JA say you must agree to our T&C’s to purchase and use our templates then you are bound by that aggreement afterwards. Regardless of any GUL license.</blockquote>
It is not regardless, because when I joined it was not in that way. And with this change the Joomlart products turn to be illegal from the perspective of Joomla! and OSM. Which is a pretty serious concern for me.

P.S. I am stating just my opinion. I am not a layer or expert in that field. Therefore I just want a clear statement from JA if they are going to be compliant with the Joomla! rules or not.

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#294045

VisiGod;115356P.S. I am stating just my opinion. I am not a layer or expert in that field. Therefore I just want a clear statement from JA if they are going to be compliant with the Joomla! rules or not.

And nor am I. I’m just giving my interpretation of Joomlas text. My interpretation is that they are not in breach. Yours is that they are.

I have a funny feeling Hungs will also be that they are not. 🙂

The only true way to solve it is to email license@opensourcematters.org and ask them.

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#294046

As I said, if we are talking about compliance, read the long GPL debate and you will see your interpretation is incorrect.
It is a totally different topic if JA decided to not be in compliance.

[scotty Friend scottyJoin date: March 2008Posts: 2339Downloads:0Uploads:13 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 827 times in 595 posts]

#294048

Long debates between users mean nothing… just like this one. 😉

Only official responses mean anything.

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#294049

You are right, but in it there are more detailed clearances on the link to the statement above 🙂

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#294065

The best recourse is to test it, defying the policy, if needed — not just talk about it. And see what Joomlart will do next.

According to what has been stated so far, in a number of threads, it seems (although no confirmation from Hung) that Developers are exempt from this latest scheme. So, it is another way around this policy.

The long term solution that would go around all these issues is if consumers, designers, programmers join together and find a way to create a system that will benefit all.

We do not have to be adversaries.

The problem sometimes is that consumers think that they are not getting their money’s worth. In turn, creators have the notion that their consumers are out to steal their creations. Both scenarios do happen, but I do not think that is the intent of most customers or creators. If we can get over these false impression, we may make progress.

Cornelio

2 users say Thank You to cgc0202 for this useful post

1. bossep
2. VisiGod

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#294069

All this is child’s play!

There is no way Joomlart.com can claim the right of the design of a complete website as putting the text designed by Joomlart.com in the footer of every page. They are just providing a few design elements like the TEMPLATE and a sometimes a few modules.

There are a lot of module providers doing the same thing with something like powered by something for instance and you sometimes have to pay a premium price for that. Fine with me! I can choose to use this module accordingly with or without the “powered by”. I am still the “designer” or the “developer”.

As the footer element is a MODULE the statement “Designed by JoomlArt.com.” stands for THAT module. As an alternative it should say “Template designed (Or module, component, plug-in) by JoomlArt.com”, or more correctly LICENSED by joomlart.com

I can choose to use it or not as any other module. I can also choose to replace it with any other module.

So now JoomlArt.com tell me “You can’t use our templates if you don’t have OUR footer module enabled” , fine.

So what if I developed a site for a client and he or she disables the footer module?

Am I a criminal?

Or can I only use Joomlart.com templates for site where I am the administrator/owner?

The SEO (Search Engine Optimization) aspect of links to http://www.joomlart.com in the footer or any other module from JA.

Do you know:
That Google and others can panelize you for irrelevant links? Meaning that if your site is all about the bible and you have a link to a totally different subject Google might think you are selling links or participate in a link exchange scam (I know this from experience!).
That you WILL be panelized if you link to “bad neighborhood” sites? Meaning that IF joomlart.com would be classified as such for some reason, you will lose positions in the rankings and if you are using Google AdSense your site could be removed from the program.

HOWEVER
In my opinion it is nothing wrong from JoomlArt.com to have a code block (code comment) like:

/*------------------------------------------------------------------------
# JA Olivine for Joomla 1.5 - Version 1.0 - Licence Owner JA111186
# ------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Copyright (C) 2004-2008 J.O.O.M Solutions Co., Ltd. All Rights Reserved.
# @license - Copyrighted Commercial Software
# Author: J.O.O.M Solutions Co., Ltd
# Websites: http://www.joomlart.com - http://www.joomlancers.com
# This file may not be redistributed in whole or significant part.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
In the script itself. They are as a matter of fact the creators of THAT script and have the RIGHT to claim authorship!

Another fact:
We all accepted the terms and conditions when we signed up and we have no right to complain about issues stated there. We signed up out of free will. We can only call our self’s suckers or some other suitable world.

However: JoomlArt.com or more correctly, J.O.O.M Solutions Co., Ltd can’t change these terms during our subscription period and these changes can’t be retroactive.

I don’t claim to be any kind of authority on legalities or copyright issues. I just try to use common sense.

All the Best

Bosse

2 users say Thank You to bossep for this useful post

1. VisiGod
2. mavdes

[VisiGod Friend VisiGodJoin date: January 2006Posts: 538Downloads:0Uploads:4 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 138 times in 18 posts]

#294071

Bosse, you have no idea how right are you.

1 user says Thank You to VisiGod for this useful post

1. bossep

[mavdes Friend mavdesJoin date: December 2007Posts: 21Downloads:2Uploads:0 Thanks: 3]

#294218

ok lemme clear things here

its not hard at all to remove the copyright.. specialy the designed by ..

but the question is .. can i do that in a legal way – without paying any extra money – ??

and if i did removed the copyright. (without permission) . does that will cost me my registration here?

This is my 2nd year here and if i kept the copyright .. this action will cost me lose my business .. all my clients and new clients (after reading the copyright) will come and register in joomlart and they do everything by themselves.. – is this the target ?

i offer the templates and offer arabizing it (rtl – ltr) and install it and support it..

if i keep the copyright specialy designed by .. so .. there will be no need that i offer the JA templates .. and that will lead me to end my registration here .. coz in that case all will come to register here and give me the templates to work at it..

what is the need of my registration here then ?

sorry .. but thats the situation

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#294220

<em>@mavdes 115567 wrote:</em><blockquote>ok lemme clear things here

its not hard at all to remove the copyright.. specialy the designed by ..

but the question is .. can i do that in a legal way – without paying any extra money – ??

and if i did removed the copyright. (without permission) . does that will cost me my registration here?

This is my 2nd year here and if i kept the copyright .. this action will cost me lose my business .. all my clients and new clients (after reading the copyright) will come and register in joomlart and they do everything by themselves.. – is this the target ?

i offer the templates and offer arabizing it (rtl – ltr) and install it and support it..

if i keep the copyright specialy designed by .. so .. there will be no need that i offer the JA templates .. and that will lead me to end my registration here .. coz in that case all will come to register here and give me the templates to work at it..

what is the need of my registration here then ?

sorry .. but thats the situation</blockquote>

Hi mavdes,

First things first: From your “avatar” you have a Personal license, not a Developer license. Have just admitted publicly that you are sharing your downloaded JA Templates with your clients who are not members of Joomlart? If so, you are in clear violation of the license you have with Joomlart — that it is only your personal websites that must have the right to use Joomlart templates. If you are sharing them with others, technically Joomlart can sue you for copyright infringement.

It is apparent that quite a few members with just a personal license are doing the same. But this does not excuse the practice that is financially detrimental to Joomlart.

As pointed by others, although I was not given the actual link, if you want to remove the “Designed by “Joomlart” link, you can do that as a Developer. Moreover, you can also share the Joomlart templates that you downloaded with your clients — provided you register the domain names.

I may disagree with Joomlart policy not to allow individual members not to have the license to remove the “Designed by “Joomlart” link (see my other posts). However, I have to side with Joomlart that individual members must pay the extra money or do the extra effort in order to acquire a Developer license, so that you can do, as you outlined in your response.

Put yourself in the shoes of Hung and the other webdesigners of Joomlart. Imagine you created something very good, and someone took it away from you without you knowing nor paying for it? What do you call that?

It is for such reasons why Joomlart had been trying to concoct all these crazy ideas, in an attempt to catch violators.

Cornelio

1 user says Thank You to cgc0202 for this useful post

1. bossep

[mavdes Friend mavdesJoin date: December 2007Posts: 21Downloads:2Uploads:0 Thanks: 3]

#294247

<em>@cgc0202 115570 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hi mavdes,

First things first: From your “avatar” you have a Personal license, not a Developer license. Have just admitted publicly that you are sharing your downloaded JA Templates with your clients who are not members of Joomlart? If so, you are in clear violation of the license you have with Joomlart — that it is only your personal websites that must have the right to use Joomlart templates. If you are sharing them with others, technically Joomlart can sue you for copyright infringement.

It is apparent that quite a few members with just a personal license are doing the same. But this does not excuse the practice that is financially detrimental to Joomlart.

As pointed by others, although I was not given the actual link, if you want to remove the “Designed by “Joomlart” link, you can do that as a Developer. Moreover, you can also share the Joomlart templates that you downloaded with your clients — provided you register the domain names.

I may disagree with Joomlart policy not to allow individual members not to have the license to remove the “Designed by “Joomlart” link (see my other posts). However, I have to side with Joomlart that individual members must pay the extra money or do the extra effort in order to acquire a Developer license, so that you can do, as you outlined in your response.

Put yourself in the shoes of Hung and the other webdesigners of Joomlart. Imagine you created something very good, and someone took it away from you without you knowing nor paying for it? What do you call that?

It is for such reasons why Joomlart had been trying to concoct all these crazy ideas, in an attempt to catch violators.

Cornelio</blockquote>

Now let me put these facts

i registered and payed here just to support free of charge templates to my clients .. i dun need
t o lie about that or hide anything.. this is first

2nd : how many personal sites a licence member can have ? 1 .. 2 .. or more?

for a personal issues i dun have a site of my own.. and if my registration here means that i only can use the templates only for my personal website(s) .. then i will not renew again and ill start searching for other company that will not have a problem with what am doing..

again .. i dun need to lie about anything or hide anything .. and frankly i can find all JA templates free of charge in the web .. u can search for it an u can find it easly..

joomlarabi dot com .. i have more than 50 RTL templates .. the templates i offer it free of charge and be sure that easly i can start charging my RTL templates by download .. but.. i dun do that .. anyone can have a template but not anyone can build a site..

note : i have only 3 clients that i used JA templates .. i will stop offering JA templates

bye bye

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#294293

Hallo mavdes,

This with licenses is a complicated issue! Both for developers and users.
So let me try to clarify it for you a little bit.

If you are a developer of a program or in this case a template you spend a lot of time and money to create it. So you like to make some money on your hard work. Perhaps you even have a team of programmers you pay salary for and you need to make ends meet, right?

Same thing for you. You spend a lot of time and effort to develop a website for a client and you need to at least cover your cost and hopefully make some profit.

So what is this with license? As a matter of fact you normally don’t BUY a program like Windows for instance. You pay for the right to use it, which is a license. The source code in this case is compiled or encrypted so you can’t do any modifications or changes.

This license could be for 1 or several computers or users. If you only have a license for 1 computer or user you can’t install on more. That is called pirating and it is illegal! Think about it. If it was not like that Microsoft had probably invested millions of $ and just sold a few copies of their program. They had two ways to go. Either file for bankruptcy or charge an enormous amount for each new version of windows.
The same goes for Joomlart they spend a lot of money to develop the templates we are using and need to at least recover their cost. So by offer a “license to use” to each of us they can distribute the developing cost over several “USERS” thereby lowering the cost for each of us.

So if you choose to by a single site license you can only use one of the templates for just that 1 site. You can of cource buy 1 license for each site you create. So with some simple math you can find the best plan for you should be the “Standard Membership 1 Year plan $70.00”.

1 site Standard Membership 3 Months cost per site $59.00
2 -3 sites (per year) Standard Membership 1 Year cost per site $23.33 -$ 35.00
20 or more site JA Developer Membership 1 Years cost per site. Divide $499.00 into the amount of sites.

I do think you should try to understand this with licensing or you might put yourself at risk giving away “free templates” it might hurt you and really badly at that.

This is one of many good articles about it:

All the best

Bosse

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#294295

<em>@mavdes 115606 wrote:</em><blockquote>Now let me put these facts

i registered and payed here just to support free of charge templates to my clients .. i dun need
t o lie about that or hide anything.. this is first

2nd : how many personal sites a licence member can have ? 1 .. 2 .. or more?

for a personal issues i dun have a site of my own.. and if my registration here means that i only can use the templates only for my personal website(s) .. then i will not renew again and ill start searching for other company that will not have a problem with what am doing..

again .. i dun need to lie about anything or hide anything .. and frankly i can find all JA templates free of charge in the web .. u can search for it an u can find it easly..

joomlarabi dot com .. i have more than 50 RTL templates .. the templates i offer it free of charge and be sure that easly i can start charging my RTL templates by download .. but.. i dun do that .. anyone can have a template but not anyone can build a site..

note : i have only 3 clients that i used JA templates .. i will stop offering JA templates

bye bye</blockquote>

Hi mavdes,

To go back to your main point, if you read many of the posts, you will find that a number of those who voiced their opinion — VisiGod, bossep, myself recently and many others in several other threads — are strongly against the policy of Joomlart not allowing members to remove the “Designed by Joomlart”

I agree with VisiGod and bossep contention that the scripts that Joomlart staff have added, they can place (within the file script headings) that they have written those files. They could do that also with the css files, as well as many of the components of the templates, modules as well as the sample data.

I am not sure that they could stake full ownership and copyright of the index.php because even if they have added something to it (or even completely overhauled it), the php scripts for the index.php are still largely based on the scripts of Joomla.

To repeat the point that I raised, as far as copyright is concerned Joomlart cannot claim that they designed the “entire scripts” — just the template and some modules. For this reason, whether I am a regular member or have a Developer license, I made it a point to remove all publicly visible stakes to such claims by Joomlart.

However, I have no plans however to delete the “copyright notices” placed by Joomlart in specific scripts related to the templates and modules created by their staff. That is the case also with other extensions that I bought or downloaded for free. I would consider it unethical and illegal even for Developers to remove those “copyright notices” as part of specific script files.

Now, to your other points. Yes, by Joomlart policies, you cannot use their templates, in websites other than your own. In fact, I just looked at the link for members:

https://www.joomlart.com/member/member.php

JATC Standard Membership – 1 year is $70.00. You can download as many templates as you want, while you are a member, but you can only use it in one (1) domain — this is down from three (3) domains as of last year (plus “unlimited use” for your non-profit sites)

And here is the kicker — no more technical support for JATC Standard Membership.

Also, I read from someone’s post that it is no longer allowed to use their templates (for free) for non-profit domains that you own???

So, anyway, I understand your decision to leave Joomlart because of their restrictive policies. When I cease to have a Developer license (see below), I would likely do the same, as you plan to do.

It is good for Joomlart to know this. They may have second thoughts, if there will be a significant drop or “slowdown” in membership.

Cornelio

N.B,
While I have a Developer license, right now, I am using just one template — the Teline II — for all my sites. However, I have created radical variations of the layout as well as extensively modified the css — including introducing many of my own css tags — to create essentially new templates, depending on the needs or complexity of the function of the website.

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#294297

<em>@bossep 115666 wrote:</em><blockquote>

1 site Standard Membership 3 Months cost per site $59.00
2 -3 sites (per year) Standard Membership 1 Year cost per site $23.33 -$ 35.00
20 or more site JA Developer Membership 1 Years cost per site. Divide $499.00 into the amount of sites.

I do think you should try to understand this with licensing or you might put yourself at risk giving away “free templates” it might hurt you and really badly at that.

This is one of many good articles about it:

All the best

Bosse</blockquote>

Good explanation Bossep. If it were the old plan that were still in existence (see below), what I would have done, if I use it for sites other than my own would have been to have separate subscriptions for sites I do not own. For three, at 4 months each would be $150. It might be slightly more but it would not have broken standard licensing policy of Joomlart.

I quoted only part of your post though to remind eveyone that Joomlart seem to have revised their plans to two, as of today:

1 Year Standard Membership — 1 domain, no technical support
1 Year Developer — “unlimited everything” for $500

No indication of “shorter” 4 months, or 6 months, anymore. According to another poster, when he tried to register for shorter period, the system did not allow him

Not sure if this is a wise move for Joomlart, but only time will tell.

My own bias, if I am in the template business, is to create a more holistic basic template for one domain use at more modest price, perhaps $20-50 each depending on the features of each template.

No one year or so many year subscription.

IInstead, subscribers will be enticed with innovative modules, plugins of components – to improve upon the templates they bought. Which is how to keep members who only plan to use a single template, but want more useful modules to improve their site.

Subscribers will have access only to the corresponding forum, and upgrades for the templates they bought for a year. A member may then opt to extend access to the specific forum and upgrade to a specific template by renewing a modest “upgrade and forum support” fee, for example, maybe as low as $20 per year, irrespective of how many template you already bought.

Essentially, there will be no distinction between Standard and Developer Members. It will be more pay as many templates as you need. There will be bulk discount, as you need more. And, developers will have tiered pricing (cheaper per template, as they buy more).

At least, that would have been my preference, as a Joomlart template subscriber.

Cornelio

[scotty Friend scottyJoin date: March 2008Posts: 2339Downloads:0Uploads:13 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 827 times in 595 posts]

#294300

cgc0202;115668
And here is the kicker — no more technical support for JATC Standard Membership.

No more tech support for standard memberships? Where did you get this info from?

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