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[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#132201

Edit: Someone deleted the Poll attached to this thread, and moved this thread to a less read Forum

I am very disappointed with this action by whoever did it for a number of reasons:

1. This is a very positive proposal that will help both members and ulitimately Joomlart
2. If this proposal is adopted by Joomlart, it will minimize problems that may arise in the complex uninstall-reinstall process of “upgrading”
3. With less problems, there will be less unwanted posting — saving time and effort for Joomlart staff and Moderators answering problems
4. I find no posts in this thread that violated any of the Forum rules

I decided to place a Polll back. Before the Poll was removed in just more than a day 8 members were supportive (YES) of this proposal, no one against (NO) and one who wanted more information. In this context, every member who participated in the Poll was leaning in favor of the proposal.

I already sent an PM to Hung protesting the action, and deploring the cowardly act of whoever did this, and did not even have the decency to own up to own up to his action by explaining his reason for rremoving the Polls.

If the second Poll is removed, I shall take that it has the blessing of Hung and Joomlart.

I took the precaution to make a PDF copy of this thread.

Cornelio

***************
Original Post
****************
I sent this request in private to a number of Joomlart Staff, including Hung and Hainn, and also suggested this proposal in a few posts, but like a number of my posts, they have fallen into deaf ears.

Part A: ]Fix (Patch) Update is standard with Joomla. Once you have installed your Joomla, any further fixes or upgrades of Joomla would require a patch, for example:

1. Joomla 1.5.0 to Joomla 1.5.1 Patch
2. Joomla 1.5.1 to Joomla 1.5.2 Patch
3. Joomla 1.5.2 to Joomla 1.5.3 Patch
4. Joomla 1.5.3 to Joomla 1.5.4 Patch
5. Joomla 1.5.4 to Joomla 1.5.5 Patch
6. Joomla 1.5.5 to Joomla 1.5.6 Patch

or wherever you started your Joomla fresh install.

or leap patches:

• Joomla 1.5.3 to Joomla 1.5.5 Patch
• Joomla 1.5.4 to Joomla 1.5.6 Patch
• etc.

if you missed to upgrade in sequence.

Part B: Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update. If you can do the above with Joomla, many of the bugs encountered with Joomlart Templates are similar scripting errors in the template files.

There is no need to uninstall then reinstall the Joomlart template, modules, components or any other extension associated with a Joomlart template.

The proposed Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update “installation” would be as simple as any Joomla update, if Joomlart prepares the Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update, regularly:

1. Download the compressed Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update
2. Unpack the compressed Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update
3. Upload the unpacked Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update

that’s it.

Of course, the usual precautions to backup the site, database and critical files are given. I would suggest also to first try the update in a Sandbox site (e.g., a mirror site of the Demo page). Then check if the update does as it was meant to do as well as not mess up the site.

Why is a Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update needed?

Rationale 1: A Joomlart Template Kit is Highly Complex — especially Teline II.
The Teline II for Joomla 1.5.x for example is more than 10Mb consisting of thousands of files in hundreds of nested directories.. The process also is very involved, a lack of fidelity during the uninstall and re-install can introduce random scripting errors that will be difficult to diagnose

Rationale 2: The number of files that need to fixed due to bugs are just few
Unless the fix should be a Top Secret, the specific Joomlart template files that needed to be changed must be known by the user — including what the actual fix were done and what the fix is intended for.

Not only is uploading a few files (arranged in their respective directories as Joomla does) be much simpler, it will also be faster, More important, if only the affected files are changed, it will eliminate the introduction of random errors due to file corruption discussed in Rationale 1.

Rationale 3: Some users have diverging preferences.
The goal of Bossep for example in this thread:

BUG: Swedish characters not displayed correctly in JA_NEWS
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/bug-swedish-characters-not-displayed-correctly-in-ja_news/

requires reversing a fix that was desired by gaygiorgia that was included in the Teline II v1.4 fix. It is imperative therefore that each user must understand the repercussion of each file that was fixed, as indicated in Rationale 2.

Rationale 4: User Joomla sites are highly customized
Sites, like those of questbg (Chris) have been highly customized — that required changes in many files and directories. More than likely, most customers have similar situation. If the process used is a install/reinstall, not only are there many potential problems that could arise, as already outlined above; it is quite tedious to “restore back” all the customization done.

So, this begs the question: Why go through all those potential troubles and waste of a lot of time, if there is a better way?

For Joomlart to provide regular Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) upgrades, just like Joomla does.

Cornelio

[questbg Friend questbgJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1912Downloads:0Uploads:1 Thanks: 146 Thanked: 339 times in 197 posts]

#265329

Hi Cornelio

<em>@cgc0202 73480 wrote:</em><blockquote>I sent this request in private to a number of Joomlart Staff, including
Sites, like those of questbg (Chris) have been highly customized — that required changes in many files and directories. More than likely, most customers have similar situation. If the process used is a install/reinstall, not only are the potential problems; the more tedious part is “restoring back” all the customization done.</blockquote>

The trouble with that one, is I’ve forgotten half of what I’ve changed. I know I could back up all the files before upgrade, but the time to wade through each one and spot the changed code would be horrific.

Hence, I’m still using Teline II v1.3!

If there was a simple ‘Patch’ update every fix, I’d be very happy! So, I’m with you on this one.

Cheers
Chris

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265332

<em>@questbg 73503 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hi Cornelio

The trouble with that one, is I’ve forgotten half of what I’ve changed. I know I could back up all the files before upgrade, but the time to wade through each one and spot the changed code would be horrific.

Hence, I’m still using Teline II v1.3!

If there was a simple ‘Patch’ update every fix, I’d be very happy! So, I’m with you on this one.

Cheers
Chris</blockquote>

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the support. I hope we can rally others to join in this petition — just like the one template per month. 🙂

If I did the fix, I devised some ways to remember exactly what I changed. For example, for the CSS, for each modification, I add this:

/* orig delete added */

where orig => original CSS specification

For the actual scripts, note that when you change them, the date changes also — usually different from the date of the installation for other files.

If I have many modifications already, I usually prepare a “master” Joomla 1.5.x-Template kit.

Of course, like everyone else, sometimes I forget to record the changes

Cornelio

N.B. I thought you were going to replicate your site?

[questbg Friend questbgJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1912Downloads:0Uploads:1 Thanks: 146 Thanked: 339 times in 197 posts]

#265334

<em>@cgc0202 73507 wrote:</em><blockquote>
Thanks for the support. I hope we can rally others to join in this petition — just like the one template per month. 🙂
</blockquote>
It took some time but we finally got there! 🙂

Just shows you the worth of never giving up!

<em>@cgc0202 73507 wrote:</em><blockquote>
N.B. I thought you were going to replicate your site?</blockquote>

Will do. I’m just configuring JoomSuite Member, subscription plans and payment methods, then I can duplicate site and test it under various Joomla versions with Telline II template, JoomFish, JoomSuite extensions, etc., to see what happens!

[2Patrick Friend 2PatrickJoin date: July 2008Posts: 256Downloads:0Uploads:19 Thanks: 74 Thanked: 11 times in 1 posts]

#265339

Hi Cornelio

Yes..its a very good idea.Hope JA can implement it .Would make things so much easier for memebers.
Btw, what’ s this about one template a month ?

[felsimedia Friend felsimediaJoin date: April 2008Posts: 84Downloads:0Uploads:0 Thanks: 4 Thanked: 9 times in 1 posts]

#265341

Yes 2Patrick. I think they should just create template once every 2 or 3 months and concentrate on their growing clients. The support is deteriorating as errors are increasing and Joomla is upgrading its version rapidly. Members here end up solving the problems by themselves and help one another just to cope up. If these will continue then we should just create one organization or help Joomla.org to make free templates.

[questbg Friend questbgJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1912Downloads:0Uploads:1 Thanks: 146 Thanked: 339 times in 197 posts]

#265348

After much campaigning and a new poll set up by Cornelio and I here:

http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/another-vote-one-template-vs-two-templates/

JoomlArt have decided to release only one template per month from August next year. Hopefully this will free up resources and allow them to concentrate on quality design, better user guides and more customer support.

Message from Hung Dinh here:
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/important-changes-to-the-ja-templates-club/

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265368

Thanks for the support. What we need here though is to make other members aware of this proposal and vote. As many people participating would be good so that Joomlart would realize that there are many members who want this.

So, please create a new thread in the respective template forum that you use to encourage people to vote and support this campaign.

For us who already have installed Joomla-Joomlart Template sites, this is more useful than the current full version of the latest Joomla 1.5.x-Joomlart Template (fixed).

Aside from just having fixes, it is as important that we know what each fixed file is intended to do because the proposed fix may not be what we want to do.

I do not know why Joomlart does not do this because it sure would minimize many of the request for help, especially from new users as well as those who have no scripting background — to deal with issues and bugs.

Cornelio

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265376

Most of us have spent many hours if not days to achieve all the customizations to get the website that we want.

To use the current protocol of “Uninstall old extension (or template) then Install the new template Extensions”, this may reset the site to some default features different from the customized website.

If you know what you are doing (not reinstall the Demo data for example) your site should be relatively intact, but doing a checkup alone is tedious. If you are not lucky, you may end up messing your website completely. Just ask Bossep’s experience. 🙂

So, the process may take a few hours to many many days of fixing new problems

Consider these numbers:

1 (hour/member) x 20,000 members x $5 per hour => $100,000

10 (hours/member) x 20,000 members x $5 per hour => $1,000,000

40 (hours/member) x 20,000 members x $5 per hour => $4,000,000

I bet, those among us who work are paid more than $5 per hour. And, if you are already quite used to Joomla and Joomlart, more than likely you will perform quite a few updates.

So the collective cost for the entire members of Joomlart is much much more. We are talking literally millions of dollars. I bet we can hire a few expert programmers to create such fixes, as proposed here, so that we do not have to waste so much time; and thus save money.

What we should realize is that it is not the cost of the template (in this case, the membership fee) that is significant, but the amount of time we spend not only to customize our websites, but also to be doing the administrative tasks, such as the constant updates and bugs fixes.

In contrast, the proposed Template Fix (Patch) Upldate will take only a few minutes or so to update because all it will involve woiuld be the upload of fixed files. Then, perhaps an hour at most to do the verification checks that everything in your website is working. It is still a lot of money, if we consider the collective cost as indicated above, but it will not be as bad as the current system of “Uninstall the old-Reinstall the update”.

Cornelio

[ErikThorsen Friend ErikThorsenJoin date: December 2005Posts: 1098Downloads:0Uploads:7 Thanks: 22 Thanked: 10 times in 1 posts]

#265401

Yeah, it is a good job you guys have done IF and only IF things improve. Otherwise you have only given Joomlart an excuse to deliver less and not increase support/bugs and so on. I have not seen from Hung that they “guarantee” that support, templates, design and so on will improve? Only that they can’t deliver 2 each month with quality stuff.

Well, I am really, really hoping you will be right and that everything will improve drastically once 1 template per month is released. However, I have my doubts…

<em>@questbg 73530 wrote:</em><blockquote>After much campaigning and a new poll set up by Cornelio and I here:

http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/another-vote-one-template-vs-two-templates/

JoomlArt have decided to release only one template per month from August next year. Hopefully this will free up resources and allow them to concentrate on quality design, better user guides and more customer support.

Message from Hung Dinh here:
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/important-changes-to-the-ja-templates-club/</blockquote>

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265408

I was afraid this will happen. Chris and I have lobbied for that change, and as far as I am concerned that is now closed.

It is futile exercise at this stage to speculate what will happen a year from now. But, from hereon, if you wish to discuss your support or opposition to the “one template per month, there is a very hot thread on this:

Discussion thread for “important changes in the JA Templates Club”

Please let us go back to our next crusade explored in this thread:

Need for Joomlart Template Fix (Patch) Update without resort to uninstall/reinstall
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/discussion-thread-for-important-changes-in-the-ja-templates-club/

and let us hope that Hung and Joomlart will get the idea that many members support this initiative.

Cornelio

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265423

To Joomlart Staff and Moderators:

I cannot be held responsible for the responses.

Is there anything in the original thread post that is threatening to the policies of Joomalrt?

I am really concerned why this thread was moved to Request and Wishlist? And,more importantly: Why the Poll was removed? Is anyone thrreatened that all of those who responded to the Poll are in favor of this proposal?

No one was against it, and only one person requested further information.

Is this thread not worthy as a Feedback?

I would be interested to know who among the Moderators or Joomlart staff did this and did not even have the decency to leave a note.

This is a cowardly act.

May I know if my post violated any Forum rules?

If not, I respectfully request that this thread be placed back to the where it used to be: The Feedback Forum.

Cornelio

[questbg Friend questbgJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1912Downloads:0Uploads:1 Thanks: 146 Thanked: 339 times in 197 posts]

#265428

I find this very strange behaviour on behalf of JA staff. There was nothing contencious about the poll or this thread?

Why remove the poll without reason or explanation?

:((

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265429

<em>@questbg 73640 wrote:</em><blockquote>I find this very strange behaviour on behalf of JA staff. There was nothing contencious about the poll or this thread?

Why remove the poll without reason or explanation?

:((</blockquote>

That is why I am so very disappointed Chris.

I like to believe that it was not a Joomlart staff who did this but just one of disgruntled Moderator who wants to make Joomlart appear bad. I wish the person who did this has enough backbone to come clean and explain himself.

I have such high hopes that this will be adopted by Joomlart because it will be of great help to all members considering how many updates we may all have to do, at this stage of the development of Joomla 1.5.x

Just imagine, not only will it save us time, but with less potential source of random errors that may be difficult to diagnose, there will be less “problem” threads that Joomlart staff have to answer.

This is really downright low and despicable.

Cornelio

[Hung Dinh Friend Hung DinhJoin date: September 2014Posts: 4408Downloads:11Uploads:189 Thanks: 309 Thanked: 3310 times in 3 posts]

#265459

Hi Everyone,
I have been quite easy with the updating of all template to 1.5.6 because of sercurity priority.

First of all, as the nature of the nature of the subject, we should move the thread to the Request and Wishlist.

Secondly, about the Patch for each template.
This is really a big job for the fast growing number of the templates that we are providing.

Let’s look at some fact and figures

84 templates
Joomla update from 1.5.5 to 2.0 how many updates we may have? 40, 50, 60? Let’s say: 50
If we provide only patch of the most recent version to the latest version, the consequent update from 1.5.3 to 1.5..4 and then to 1.5.5 can easily go wrong.
So we need to release every patches for every Joomla updates

• Joomla 1.5.3 to Joomla 1.5.5 Patch
• Joomla 1.5.3 to Joomla 1.5.6 Patch
• Joomla 1.5.3 to Joomla 1.5.6 Patch
• ………………………………………………
• Joomla 1.5.3 to Joomla 2.0 Patch

and…

• Joomla 1.5.4 to Joomla 1.5.5 Patch
• Joomla 1.5.4 to Joomla 1.5.6 Patch
• Joomla 1.5.4 to Joomla 1.5.6 Patch
• ………………………………………………
• Joomla 1.5.4 to Joomla 2.0 Patch

So how may patch we will have? You can make the calculation yourself
How we can handle the download section so that it can be easy and convenient to use.
Let’s count the number of PATCH we need to release when we have a Joomla new update

I suggest following method when you update the template

If you customization is minor and total in control.

– Back up the customization to a log file. Download the latest templates and reapply all of the codes

If your customization is huge.

Then there will be no point in updating everything. You can look at the change log to see if the update is important to you.

Thirdly, concerning the POLL.

The permission of creating POLL function should be available to Moderator/Admin and I have turn off the POLL function.

We read and listen to user request, if it is nice idea and we are able to do that, we will do that.
So it is not necessary to have a POLL. What happen if a poll result can be YES but we are unable to do to that request, or at least unable to do it at a certain time frame?

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