JoomlArt Forums 32,862 posts

[perdu Friend perduJoin date: June 2007Posts: 227Downloads:0Uploads:26 Thanks: 10 Thanked: 20 times in 1 posts]

#265460

A template patch is not only an excellent solution it also essential. Currently as I posted previously in another post there is no changelog provided only vague references to forum posts which is absolutley ludicrous, does JA honestly think we have the time to spend roaming around the forum looking for clues?

In most of the questions I’ve seen asked about updating templates the answer given is to uninstall and reinstall the new version, ermm? This just isn’t practical if like most of us do you’ve modified the template and the only other alternative is to spend a few hours using WinMerge or some other file comparing software.

Since I switched to using a JA template I seem to spend most of my time hunting through buggy code trying to find the bit that changed or fix the bit that didn’t work in the first place, it’s frustrating, tedious and quite simply I have better things to do – bring in a Template Fix (Patch) ASAP for all updates!

[questbg Friend questbgJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1912Downloads:0Uploads:1 Thanks: 146 Thanked: 339 times in 197 posts]

#265462

Thank you for replying here Hung Dinh

<em>@Hung Dinh 73676 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hi Everyone,
The permission of creating POLL function should be available to Moderator/Admin and I have turn off the POLL function.
</blockquote>

Then how do you expect to get feedback from your users to develop your companyPle?

Surely this is not good for JA to restrict client input?

This poll did not go against JA policies, in fact is was valid input from your paying clents.

Surely, every user that has paid to use JA templates has the right to create a poll, if such poll is valid and relevant to all paying members?

Thank You

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265496

Hi Hung,

Thanks for responding. If you just responded as you did in your post above — before moving this thread, and deleting the first and the second poll — then there would be less of a misunderstanding.

Maybe I did not explain myself well. My only excuse is that my native tongue not English. As a result, you completely misunderstood what I and those who have responded meant by JoomlArt Template Patch.

I will address the more “controversial” issues here that you raised in your response. However, I will create another post to explain better what I meant by JoomlArt Template Patch.

The new post on the need for the Need of a Joomlart Template Patch is a Feedback. As such, I will post this new thread on the Need for Joomlart Template Patch in the Feedback Forum.

Why do I persist in doing so? If I state my observation, i.e., a feedback, in regard this I am not requesting that Joomlart comply with my suggestions.

If Joomlart cannot or will not do it — then that only means Joomlart cannot or will not do it. It will just reflect what you cannot or will not do for the customers.

As a customer, what I need is more transparency. And, it is likely that many other customers may want the same. However, because I do not want to claim to speak or have an insight as to how other customers may feel about the issue, I decided to include a Poll.

To my knowledge, you have allowed other regular customers to include a Poll before. In fact, you allowed my other thread to have a Poll.

If it is your intention all along not to allow regular members to have the right to include a Poll in their thread, and limit this only to Moderators and Staff. Then, that new policy — Regular members cannot include a Poll in their thread — should have been included in the Forum Rules.

That is the transparency that I am talking about. As questbg (Chris) stated, a Poll is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, if Joomlart has the courage to accept legitimate criticisms, and find ways to work together any issues between us as customers and Joomlart, then it will only lead to the improvement of Joomlart.

Please let me know if you have any objection to my posting a post on the Need for Joomlart Template Patch in the Feedback Forum. I shall wait for a day for your response, but since you are a very busy person, if I do not hear from you in a day, I shall assume that it is OK.

Cornelio

**************

<em>@Hung Dinh 73676 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hi Everyone,
I have been quite easy with the updating of all template to 1.5.6 because of sercurity priority.

First of all, as the nature of the nature of the subject, we should move the thread to the Request and Wishlist.

Secondly, about the Patch for each template.
This is really a big job for the fast growing number of the templates that we are providing.

Let’s look at some fact and figures

84 templates
Joomla update from 1.5.5 to 2.0 how many updates we may have? 40, 50, 60? Let’s say: 50
If we provide only patch of the most recent version to the latest version, the consequent update from 1.5.3 to 1.5..4 and then to 1.5.5 can easily go wrong.
So we need to release every patches for every Joomla updates
So how may patch we will have? You can make the calculation yourself
How we can handle the download section so that it can be easy and convenient to use.
Let’s count the number of PATCH we need to release when we have a Joomla new update

I suggest following method when you update the template

If you customization is minor and total in control.

– Back up the customization to a log file. Download the latest templates and reapply all of the codes

If your customization is huge.

Then there will be no point in updating everything. You can look at the change log to see if the update is important to you.

Thirdly, concerning the POLL.

The permission of creating POLL function should be available to Moderator/Admin and I have turn off the POLL function.

We read and listen to user request, if it is nice idea and we are able to do that, we will do that.
So it is not necessary to have a POLL. What happen if a poll result can be YES but we are unable to do to that request, or at least unable to do it at a certain time frame?</blockquote>

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265514

Hi Hung,

<em>@Hung Dinh 73676 wrote:</em><blockquote>
Thirdly, concerning the POLL.

The permission of creating POLL function should be available to Moderator/Admin and I have turn off the POLL function.
</blockquote>

If this is your intention Hung, then this new policy should be included in the Forum rules. Members cannot include a Poll in their thread.

That is what I meant by transparency — the customers must know what they can and cannot do.

I would not have done so in the past, and I would not have done so in this thread. I have not started including a Poll until I saw some customers doing it. And, I might add everyone who has done so did it only when needed. I have posted more than a thousand now — a significant number of them to help other customers who cannot get responses from Joomlart.

In those thousands of posting, I have only included a Poll in three or four of them. The reason for doing so was that I will not claim to know what other customers perpective on an issue that I am interested to post to the membership.

<em>@Hung Dinh 73676 wrote:</em><blockquote>
What happen if a poll result can be YES but we are unable to do to that request, or at least unable to do it at a certain time frame?</blockquote>

As a matter of fact, if you did not delete the First and the Second Poll, everyone who responded in the two Poll — except one who wanted more information — wanted a JoomlArt Template Patch for the template they used.

Let us be frank about this: The outcome of the Poll on this issue will be mostly in favor of the need for JoomlArt Patch Update.

You and I know this, and is the reason why you were concerned and asked: “…but [what if] we are unable to do to that request, or at least unable to do it at a certain time frame?”

Based from your response in your previous post, I think you misunderstood what we really are stating about what a JoomlArt Template Patch Upgrade. This is the reason why I stated that I will clarify this issue in a separate thread. And, based from your response above to this post

<em>@Hung Dinh 73676 wrote:</em><blockquote>
If your customization is huge.

Then there will be no point in updating everything. You can look at the change log to see if the update is important to you.
</blockquote>

Cornelio

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265521

<em>@Hung Dinh 73676 wrote:</em><blockquote>
We read and listen to user request, if it is nice idea and we are able to do that, we will do that.
So it is not necessary to have a POLL.
</blockquote>

Hung, I respect your perspective to protect the interest of Joomlart. At the same time, as customers, we must protect our own interest to get the best service that we can. These two interests need not be in conflict.

If we work together, we may come to an understanding that is mutually beneficial.

You stated: “it is not necessary to have a POLL.” Do you think I would have placed a Poll if it is not necessary? And, if other members who responded so far think as you do, won’t they have stated so? And, if the policy that members could not place a Poll in their thread is stated clearly in the Forum rules, would I have posted the poll?

I do not post maliciously. I do not aim to cause trouble for JoomlArt, otherwise why would I be vehemently lambasting people who I believed unjustly criticised JoomlArt.

Obviously, from hereon, I will abide by your new policy that members cannot include a Poll in their thread. To my knowlesge, none of my post has broken any Joomlart Forum rules.

Consumer Protection Group for Website Creators

As questbg stated above, Polls can be an effective way to get feedback from consumers.

This is the internet age. I have been public in the JoomlArt Forum with my intention to form a Collaborative Support Group (CSG) meant for regular website creators. Because many of our target audience would have limited fund, one of the goals of the CSG group would be to provide objective reviews about templae companies, Joomla 3rd party developers, webhosting services, domain name registrars and more.

As the group increase in number, we shall explore and include anything and everything that will help members of the Collaborative Support Group (CSG) save time, money and create the best website that they could.

We will use Polls in these reviews, but to be more objective, if we create Polls that are relevant to a specific template companies, for example, the Poll would be restricted to members of CSG that have proof that they were either a former member or existing member of a template company. The same applies for anyone among the members of the CSG who want to write a review on any of the template companies or their products. If they review a specific template, a member must show that they are using that template.

In this regard, you can be assured that among the criteria used to evaluate a template company would include:

1. Cost of membership
2. Featured Templates
3. Manuals and Tutorials
4. Forum Support

and also:

1. QuickStart Kits
2. Template Patch Update
3. Licensing Features & Automated Registration
4. Developer License Specifications

In the above criteria, Joomlart will get high point on the QuickStart Kit and Gavick Pro will get zero (I am not sure if they have changed this already). On the other hand, Joomlart would get zero points on Template Patch Update — if you decide not to provide such service.

To be honest, since I have just been with Joomlart and GavickPro, I am not aware of any template company that provides a Template Patch Update, at this stage. However,, what I know now, and what others have stated in this post and in other posts, as well as in the deleted Polls, it is a universal clamor for customers to want Template Patch Update.

Thus, from those who particiapted so far, we need a Template Patch Update more than new tempaltes. To be frank, I could not care less if you create one or two more templates, because I am likely not to use any of them.

We clamored for one template per month because we expect that you will then use part of your “freed” time for features that we expect of JoomlArt. From the result of the Polls, one of those would be the provision of Template Patch Update. As such, this will be a key criteria in evaluating template companies.

As I stated above, I will clarify what I meant by a Template Patch Update in a separate thread that I will post in the Feedback Forum.

Cornelio

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#265534

Hi Hung,

To reiterate, I am not requesting JoomlArt to provide Template Patch Update. I am sure — based from the result of the Polls that were deleted — others will feel the same.

If we feel strongly that this is what we need, we will get this Template Patch Update, one way or another. Thus, it is Joomlart’s decision whether you will or will not provide us with .Template Patch Updates.

The Power of Numbers

As consumers, we will then decide what to do — in response to what Joomlart will do for us.

If Joomlart will not provide Template Patch Update, then those of us who feel strongly on this can pool our resources to make it happen. For example, we could hire our own programmer(s) to provide us the Template Patch Update. And, if there are enough of us, the cost will be miniscule per consumer.

Let us suppose that it will cost $200 to create each Template Patch Update:

10 people => $20 each
100 people => $2
1000 people => $0.2
10,000 people => $0.02

I bet there are more than 100 people using the Teline II for example, and will use no other template except that. And, if that is the case, it will cost each of us only $24 a year (for 100 people) to have 12 template patch updates.

I don’t think it will come to that. And, if there are more people wanting the same, especially for Teline II, 20 cents each is nothing.

The Bottom Line

Considering the aforementioned extrapolation, if some customers for example will not use any other template except the one they are using now, and Joomlart will not provide them the Template Patch Update — what is the incentive for paying a $70 membership for these one-template members?

With $70 freed by not paying Template membership fee per year:

10 people => $700 total
100 people => $7,000
1,000 people => $70,000

Collectively, we could think of so many creative ways to spend that money.

Cornelio

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#265694

First of all thank you Cornelio (cgc0202) and Chris (questbg) for your efforts in this essential question.

To Hung, sorry but I do think you need to pay attention to this. I will explain in another post.
There are a lot of things included in this tread not only the core issue of update patches.

1. How JA is treating its members.
2. Hurt feelings among JA’s clients.
3. Miss understanding of who has the right to do what.

I do believe Hung and JA have all the right in the world to remove the possibility of posting polls in these forums. As well as moving treads around!
However, it might not be seen as a good thing among the clients of JA. This will probably lead to members leaving the club with less sales in the future. This might be covered by new members but returning clients is good for the business generally speaking.

The hurt feelings shared among many of us. Well, I do think this might be a matter of business culture between us. It is possible that we just don’t understand or try to understand that something totally acceptable in one end of the world is the total opposite in another.

This is one of the general drew backs of globalization and has been a problem of the Internet since I started to use it. Not only here in the forum. The polls are a perfect example:

Cgc0202 thinks that his action would help JA to make a better product. I am totally convinced that no interest of HARMING JA exist from his part what so ever.

Hung on the other hand probably sees this as his clients trying to tell him how to run his company and directing and changing his business model.

Who is right? I would say both.

I did also read some one apologizing of bad language skills (I think it was cgc0202).
Well this is in my opinion the beauty of the NET. We can all try to communicate in some way or forms and a spelling or grammatical error just shows the power of the net. We all have an obligation to TRY to understand someone with less language skills than ourselves and IF we don’t understand politely ask for a clarification.

Sincerely

Bosse

[bossep Friend bossepJoin date: April 2008Posts: 262Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 50 Thanked: 15 times in 3 posts]

#265700

Dear Hung and others,

I do think that update patches should be your number ONE priority when it comes to customer support.

The Quick install is excellent for new installs and pre-production sites but for a site already in production it is not too much help. We need a way to do partial updates.

Way? As I wrote in a previous post BUGS are impossible to avoid even in the best application and as the complexity of your templates are increasing so are the demands for fast and orderly fixes.
Please don’t see this as criticism. This is actually me trying to chip in my two cents of experience in software development.

The problem we have and need to be solved is related to two things.

1. Joomla updates and patches.
a. Major releases like 1.o to 1.5
b. Security updates and other bug fixes

It is up to you to keep this up and revise if your products are compatible or not and to produce updates to your products IF YOU choose to. But I think you should declare witch version of Joomla is supported.

2. Template and Extension related.

a. Updates and modifications of templates. My opinion is that you release this as a new product like Teline and Teline II. But you need to support both versions during a reasonable time.

b. Bugs related to JA products. Sorry, but in my opinion you have the obligation to fix them.

c. The GRAY zone, this is the most difficult part. One thing might be seen as a bug from one user and as a feature by another. THIs is hard but presenting both alternatives might be the solution.

You probably already know this bust just for the sake of argument just let us repeat the general rules of code updates and maintenance releases.
1 Alpha release, Limited to a small group for testing normally in house.
2 Beta release, a larger group normally selected clients do the testing together with Alpha team.
3 Release Candidate, An even larger audience and testing group, This is basically to confirm that all the changes and fixes works and this release should be bug free.
4 Release, a bug free product is released to the public for sale or in our case for download by all members.

The abbreviated development cycle:
Wright code –Test.
Correct code – Test.
Document code – Test.
Approve code – Test.
Release – Test.

When we follow this simple, do, test, document flow. It is easy to abstract the document part to create the change log we need later and that should be disclosed to the different testing and user groups.

I do think that a lot of passionate users of your applications should be willing to participate in the above, I am one of them.

I do understand your concern of over worked development team trying to maintain a bunch of old templates when you could use them to create new and exciting stuff to the benefit of your company and your clients ( let’s not talk about 1 or 2 templates/month).

But please consider the help we, the users and clients could give you. Even if it creates a little bit more work at the present it will benefit you in the future.
I for one, could take on me to produce the patches and upload them to your server for Teline II J1.5.x

One last thing. Hung, please don’t see this as criticism of you or your team. I am just trying to help improving your good products so they become even better to the benefit of all of us. I am NOT trying to tell you how to run your business and the above ideas are just that, ideas.

Bosse

[felsimedia Friend felsimediaJoin date: April 2008Posts: 84Downloads:0Uploads:0 Thanks: 4 Thanked: 9 times in 1 posts]

#270220

What can I say….
I dunno if I should feel happy for every new version of Teline II or get mad coz I have a new headache.
Come on joomlart. If joomla can create patches for free why not for your customers who are getting crazy and trying to be a tech support for each other?

Anyway, we had said a lot of these things already and the management of joomlart are very much aware. Why don’t we (the customers who are spending their lives tweaking the templates) to have our own group and share experiences and expertise? How’s that? Just a thought.

[Author]

Posts