Joomla Templates Club 406,261 posts

[aardcom Friend aardcomJoin date: February 2008Posts: 183Downloads:66Uploads:3 Thanks: 46 Thanked: 30 times in 4 posts]

#167450

I am not sure where else to post this without keeping it restricted to members only but I have a request I would like other members to comment on.

First of all let me start with a thank you for all the support given by staff and members alike. Support and assistance from JA staff and and members is one of the best parts of being a member.

This past year has been especially concerning to us with the changes in Joomla versions and the race to keep up with template versions, competing platforms and module and extension addons updates and the like. I know that many members have moved on to 1.6 and will likely be further ahead at adapting to 1.7/1.8 once they are stable. With everything in transition now to Joomla 1.7 and then 1.8, we have kept with 1.5 for production sites and will upgrade as the extensions we use work out the bugs for 1.7/1.8. We’ve skipped 1.6 altogether except for evaluation purposes.

Given that JA is making the efforts to keep up with multiple versions of the templates, and the demand for fixes, patches and general how to’s is increasing exponentially, we have some suggestions or requests that may irk some members but may help alieviate some pressure.

Release templates (quickstarts) without JAT3 – While we see the advantages of using the framework for creating templates and making major mods to JATC templates, it is not an easy platform to pass on to clients. As a result, we are using newer templates solely for our own, where there are many we would like to see our clients use for themselves. Making it more complicated for end users defeats the purpose of using Joomla as a framework in the first place. Considering that staff are now trying to cope with the transition from 1.5-1.8 over the next year, browser changes, mobile platform changes and SEO issues, it’s quickly becoming a full time process to monitor all the sites daily.

I believe there are members who like us, can use the templates as released and can do without making major changes, or do so as needed when the time comes. We’ve encountered issues with caching, conflicts with stable extensions, that are making site building far more complex than need be, It makes it more difficult to isolate issues and implement solutions. Compress, or not to compress, join optimize etc etc…For newer members, it would make it much easier to get them using JA templates in the first place.

If using third party extensions in the demo, make sure the template works with it. That is make it a part of the template and include some additional detail in it’s use in the guides. Most of the new site templates use K2 in some form in the the template. It’s a great extension and has a variety of uses that make it invaluable as a part of the template use. However there are issues. for full implementation of the K2 system they require an addon for the gallery, which until the last update did not play nice with the JAT3 framework and which competes with the JA gallery feature. They do not serve the same purpose from web developer standpoint, although for the viewer they do. We have spent days going back and forth between JA and K2 to get issues addressed which should not exisit in the first place.

We’re geting to the point where we cannot make updates to live sites because we have no idea what the result will be. The JA extension manager makes it simpler to do rollbacks but more often than not that is exactly what we have to do when updating extensions and clients can’t wait days for fixes or solutions. It defeats the purpose of a template club.

Without going on forever, a couple other suggestions in regards to the forums. A section in JATC forum for listing known 3rd party extension issues and some notification when fixes or work arounds are made. Usually they are not template specific. A K2 section, since it is a part of most new templates, many issues are not template specific and may best be addressed in that section rather than searching the forum. Most searches now include 1.6 and 1.5 related issues and when 1.7 releases come out….well….

As stated at the beginning and before anyone bites my head off, we really appreciate all the efforts and progress we’ve made since becoming members of the JA community. We want to keep it that way and that is the reason for this post. It’s not intended for public viewing, but feel free to move where it may fit best.

We look forward to comments from other JATC members and developers and thank everyone for ongoing support of this forum and Joomlart.

Cheers….

3 users say Thank You to aardcom for this useful post

1. cansay
2. Phill
3. TomC

[Phill Moderator PhillJoin date: February 2014Posts: 7013Downloads:40Uploads:77 Thanks: 917 Thanked: 2206 times in 1818 posts]

#406437

Thanks for your comments. JA certainly do listen and are working harder than ever to keep their users happy. As you know with the changes to the Joomla release schedule this has left a lot of people confused and unsure which way to turn. I am of the same ilk as you and am sticking with long term releases for live sites (currently J1.5 with the next being J1.8).

As for the framework it actually does make the transition through versions easier for us. I am aware some have had conflicts but a lot of it is not to do with the framework but more the extensive use of js in the menu system or scripts JA have employed for other features such as rounded corner generation in IE. You would get the same problems whether the menu was in the plugin folder or in the templates folder. That really is all the plugin is doing, splitting the essential files from the asthetic files.

K2 is another kettle of fish. I myself prefer not to use it but I know many do like it. The current J1.6/7 templates do not use it as it is not yet fully availble for that version but for J1.5 I agree it would be nice to have a separate sub forum for K2 issues related to the template. I will make that suggestion.

As for your issues JA have recently stepped up the support side to a whole new level and hopefully this will speed up the response time dramatically. If you have any conflicts or issues please do not hesitate to ask in the relavent forums and JA will do their best to give you a speedy answer.

[aardcom Friend aardcomJoin date: February 2008Posts: 183Downloads:66Uploads:3 Thanks: 46 Thanked: 30 times in 4 posts]

#415123

As a followup to my earlier comments we recently spent countless hours over two weeks trying to solve an issue on a live site. The issue appeared with the use of a particular 3rd party component, and we could not determine the cause. This was separate from the K2 issues we had experienced and dealt with. We assumed it was caused by the third party component, since everything worked with the T3 component on it’s own. We opened tickets with both the third party and Joomlart and now we find it was caused by a “bug” in the T3 framework. Still unresolved and no time frame given on a fix…..which in defense of Joomlart, they obviously can’t fix what they don’t know is broken.

My suggestion would be to release templates with and without the T3 component. I do not understand why this is not a given solution to the numerous support issues being raised on the forums. We love the templates, but many off us need to implement existing 3rd party components as well as the template of choice, which in our case is Joomlart templates because of the variety and the community support.

We’re now faced with the issue of using another template from another provider simply because ours won’t work with a key component on a site using T3. That shouldn’t be an issue. We don’t always need to override the default template settings, and when we do, most settings can be changed using Joomla overrides or relatively simple color and font settings.

I can see the ‘potential’ in utilizing the T3 system but it shouldn’t be the only option. It’s a component and should be optional. Unfortunately we don’t have the option of simply turning off T3 because then the template doesn’t work as intended without it.

I know this is more of a debate of developer vs designer, but the concept of templates are that it saves designers a lot of time. This is no longer the case for many designers. I wish the developers would listen to some of the comments in the forum and reconsider releasing templates both with and without T3. I think they could save themselves a lot of headaches while we get through the time to version 1.8, which is not too far down the road. Templates should work with or without T3 first, then add T3 as a component for those who need the features. It should not be essential, at least until the dust settles with 1.8.

[Phill Moderator PhillJoin date: February 2014Posts: 7013Downloads:40Uploads:77 Thanks: 917 Thanked: 2206 times in 1818 posts]

#415921

I think you may actually miss understand what the T3 element actually is. Whay JA have done really is just moving many of the key files that would normally be in the templates folder to a plugin. Putting those files back into the templates folder would really make no difference to your issue whatever it is.

If you could explain your problem in more details I am sre we can see if we can come up with a solution.

[aardcom Friend aardcomJoin date: February 2008Posts: 183Downloads:66Uploads:3 Thanks: 46 Thanked: 30 times in 4 posts]

#415948

Thanks Phil, and I do get the purpose of the T3 component, however we all know there are components and plugins that will not work with compressionjoined settings turned on. K2 (occassionaly), SEF, and some form scripting components are examples of this. I’m referring to J1.5 only in our case. Just look through a template for favicons and you can find 4 or more places where this needs to be changed, whereas it used to go in the root folder. That’s unecessary overhead in my view and a simple example..

In a recent support ticket I was told only that there was a bug in the T3 component and they are working on a solution for the next upgrade, and that in the meantime I should leave settings for developer mode on, and compression turned off, until it is resolved. That puts a huge load on the server, which in our case is ok, but for many it is not. Before the T3 component, we did not experience cache issues or the conflicts we have been having using recent templates. In our case usually related to a addon component we need and have used successfully with non T3 based templates. And explaining how to use the T3 components to a end user is next to impossible, even when they have a basic understanding of Joomla.

As I don’t usually need to make big changes to the template, and most I can do by altering the css only, it would be much simpler if the template came with and without T3. If you download a template quickstart, and turn off T3, I don’t think the template will work. Maybe I’m wrong, but my point is it should. And without T3 I could make use of these templates on more sites, (maybe even upgrade my membership) but we do not get good feedback on the useablility so we don’t.

T3 is a component that allows you to override the template settings, which you can already do in Joomla 1.5 if you need to. Whether the T3 component makes that process simpler for everyone is debatable. For developers definitely, but I think there are quite a few designers and end users that do not find it so. This is reflected in the forums. We like the component…but we don’t always need it.

[Phill Moderator PhillJoin date: February 2014Posts: 7013Downloads:40Uploads:77 Thanks: 917 Thanked: 2206 times in 1818 posts]

#415958

Before T3 you had to use third party compression tools and there really is no reason why you cannot still do that. However you compress things especially with JS you will often run into problems whatever tool you use. Some scripts simply do bot play well together and compression will just make things worse.

As for your comment about T3 being a component that allows you to make adjustments to template setting that really is not what it is. It is a plugin containing all of the code needed to make the template run. Things such as the menu system, the layout and much more. The settings really are just added. I do understand where you are coming from but the T3 element is there to stay as without it the templates will never work, at least not without moving all of the code from the T3 plugin into the template folder.

[aardcom Friend aardcomJoin date: February 2008Posts: 183Downloads:66Uploads:3 Thanks: 46 Thanked: 30 times in 4 posts]

#415966

I agree that it is the direction JA is headed, where T3 is required. Now it’s not a template club per se in that we have to include a plugin. And the plugin requires compression to function optimally, but that breaks some other components. I know we can exclude content that can’t be compressed but for now it’s an added chore, and I find it becoming necessarily bloated. I just like simplicity, where we only add what we need. Kind of the old Linux vs MS debate.

I’ll get over it….eventually. There’s lots of value in the included plugins and components overall, some that we couldn’t do without. Thanks for the feedback anyway.

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