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[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#143358

I was away in early 2008, for almost four months ,when the credit system was first instituted and modified. When I came back in late May 2008 and accidentally read the modified credit system, I responded I believe in the thread that it is likely to be abused or those who deserve the credits due are not getting what they truly deserve.

Here are issues I identified as possible areas where there might be abuse or where credit points should not be deserved:

1. Spam posting that do not contribute anything
2. One liners — both legitimate and spam one liners
3. Mutual admiration “Thank You’s”
4. Thank you’s to express agreement to a point of view

In fact, to prove my point, I showed how I could rack, more than 100pts of credits, by adding a series of “one liners” in less than 30 minutes. Imagine how many points one could amass in a year from postings.

When I left again and came back, the only modification was the “Best Answer”, which from what I could see is not working as well, if left to the original thread poster alone.

More than a year later, here is the result of the current credit system, with all its imperfections (I removed the names of Joomlart staff and Moderators because the latter have special benefits):

(Only members that are not Moderators nor Staff included here)
User Thanked

1. scotty 588
2. bennitos 337
3. questbg 287
4. phill luckhurst 218
5. mj1256 216
6. cgc0202 198
7. jbrett 179
8. wooohanetworks 140

in a more fair world — assuming that the thank yous are truly earned, rather than what I call, mutual admiration thank yous, or we share the same perspective (I agree with you thank you) — then the above ranking should mirror the credits earned.

For example, Scotty should get twice to three times more credits than I did. Scotty should get almost four (4) times wooohanetworks. Moreover, except for two in the above lists — jbrett and wooohanetworks — everyone else should have gotten more credits than I did.

I should state that I do not solicit “Thank you’s”, i.e., I do not place it after my signature. And, there are many instances where I did not get those thank yous, but it is likely that others might be in the same boat. Also, there are instances where I should not be thanked, but people do not use them properly

The actual credits earned do not correlate with the total “Thank yous”. The credits earned correlate more with the total posts, with the “Thank yous” having an effect only when thee total posts are close enough, and there is great disparity in the “Thank yous” — see above table and compare with the order shown below

Credits (Only members that are not Moderators included here)

1. Scotty Total Posts: 1,841 Credits 02-29-2008 18,341
2. cgc0202 08-02-2007 Total Posts: 1,784 Credits 15,660
3. wooohanetworks 09-03-2008 Total Posts: 1,229 Credits 12,935
4. bennitos 05-22-2008 Total Posts: 1,275 Credits 12,108
5. questbg 05-20-2008 Total Posts: 1,700 Credits 11,753
6. mj1256 06-30-2007 Total Posts: 1,380 Credits 10,079
7. phill luckhurst 01-22-2009 Total Posts: 737 Credits 9,479
8. instantinlaw 02-07-2007 Total Posts: 1,389 Credits 8,889
9. swemmel 02-27-2006 Total Posts: 756 Credits 8,747
10. 2Patrick*** 07-07-2008 Total Posts: 222 Credits 8,534
11. jbrett 07-23-2008 Total Posts: 714 Credits 6,077

The disparity is even greater after the redemptions are included

1. cgc0202 08-02-2007 Total Posts: 1,784 Credits 15,660+ 6,000 + 6,000 (see below) =27,660
2. Scotty 02-29-2008 Total Posts: 1,841 Credits 18,341 + 6,000 (?)
3. wooohanetworks 09-03-2008 Total Posts: 1,229 Credits 12,935 + 6,000 (?)
4. bennitos 05-22-2008 Total Posts: 1,275 Credits 12,108 + 6,000
5. questbg 05-20-2008 Total Posts: 1,700 Credits 11,753 + 6,000 (?)
6. mj1256 06-30-2007 Total Posts: 1,380 Credits 10,079 + 6,000 (?) + 6,000 (?)
7. phill luckhurst 01-22-2009 Total Posts: 737 Credits 9,479
8. instantinlaw 02-07-2007 Total Posts: 1,389 Credits 8,889 + 6,000 (?)
9. swemmel 02-27-2006 Total Posts: 756 Credits 8,747 + 6,000 (?)
10. jbrett 07-23-2008 Total Posts: 714 Credits 6,077 + 6,000 (?)
11. 2Patrick*** 07-07-2008 Total Posts: 222 Credits 8,534

The reasons I stated (above) more than a year ago are as expected the culprit for the disparity shown above.

The solutions to resolve the disparity are not easy, althuogh some may be instituted more easily.

For example, from what I can tell, a “Thank you” gets almost the same points as any posts.

Even those asking for help get credits (what’s up with that???). I know of a situations where a member got enough credits because he asked so many questions to earn enough free regular membership. And he does not ask the easiest questions, so his threads could be several pages long. I helped him several times but I stopped doing that when he does not even help others who were asking the same questions where I knew I or others already gave him the solution in his previous threads.

In other words, no reciprocity of doing the good deed to others as it was extended to him. Joomlart staff or the Moderators could not possibly devote enough time to answer all the questions of members if members who have been helped won’t help other members.

Another person wrote to me in private asking for 600 credits — not 100 but 600, so (s)he could get extend her membership to ask more questions. (S)he thought that earning 600 credits is so easy and thus as easy to give away. But, the reason why I did not give the person any was that after more than a hundred posts for a year, the person was thanked only once. What does that tell you?

Another change that might help, while there must be a baseline credit for “Thank Yous” and “Best answers”, there are cases where the effort could really be extraordinary. Judging from my own experiences asking for help, I know for example that apart from the staff, people like scotty, phil and a number of members had to work harder to resolve some of the questions I asked.

Those types of “Thank yous” deserve much much more credits than some of the stuff I did, like sharing others what I learned from the staff, Moderators or other members. The latter also must earn more points than “mutual admiration Thank yous” or I agree with you “Thank yous”. There is not easy way of doing this though but through careful even manual reading of Moderators. Maybe Moderators can earn their credits by being able to spot these.

Such premium credits (apart from the automated) credits may encourage members to help others because their efforts are not only recognized, they are earning credits. The best example I know here, from our actual interaction is Chris (questbg) who learned quite a bit through the Forums, and as shown above is one with the most “Thank yous”. His total would even be greater, because he also helped others outside of the forums.

Most important reform: Posting per se must not be given too many points (maybe one or two points???) to discourage spam posts and too many ditto one liners. If this is not corrected, and more members got wind of it, how easy it is to earn points, just by posting short or one liner posts — Joomlart will lost revenue.

And of course, the length of the posts must not be rewarded, otherwise, I will get even much much more points than Scotty or bennitos.:)

Finally, I wish to take this opportunity here to thank all members, staff and Moderators who have taken the time not only to help me, but also others here.

I hope this second time to suggest reforms to the credit system will get the attention of staff and perhaps Moderators who may then relay or discuss them in their private Forum.

My suggestions are not perfect, nor maybe well thought out, so I welcome revisions, other alternative suggestions to reform the current credit system.

Cornelio

1 user says Thank You to cgc0202 for this useful post

1. toddman

[toddman Friend toddmanJoin date: October 2006Posts: 118Downloads:0Uploads:2 Thanks: 33 Thanked: 8 times in 1 posts]

#313743

There are some members that will only help you with your problem after you have posted a set amount of thank you’s on there posts before giving you a fix/answer.

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#313748

<em>@toddman 140064 wrote:</em><blockquote>There are some members that will only help you with your problem after you have posted a set amount of thank you’s on there posts before giving you a fix/answer.</blockquote>

Not always the case toddman, expecially from my experience with the top ones above. Sometimes, the problem is with the original thread poster.

For example: How would someone respond to this question:
<blockquote>
I am not getting the Demo page layout. Can you please help me?

</blockquote>

Do you know how many gazillion variables could have gone awry? And, what the one who wishes to help must know before being able to give a fix answer?

Many of the posts for help here are different variations of that, some more informative, some even less.

Cornelio

[toddman Friend toddmanJoin date: October 2006Posts: 118Downloads:0Uploads:2 Thanks: 33 Thanked: 8 times in 1 posts]

#313752

cgc0202;140069Not always the case toddman, expecially from my experience with the top ones above. Sometimes, the problem is with the original thread poster.
Cornelio

It happen to me & he was one of the top posters. His favorite post is “post url link”

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#313753

<em>@toddman 140077 wrote:</em><blockquote>It happen to me & he was one of the top posters. His favorite post is “post url link”</blockquote>

Which is a very valid request toddman. In fact, it is required as included in every new thread.

There are many things that can be easily eliminated, or it is easier to have a perspective of the problem if they URL is given.

If you visit some of my posts, I give the URL link to a Sandbox page showing the same problem because I may not want to show my actual page. I am even more willing to share a new username and password, if they need to get in.

However, for some problems, it is possible for those with more expertise to retrieve the information they wanted from the site, to diagnose the problem — without going inside your Admin (backend) page.

Most important, it is easier to view the actual site, rather than describe what the problem actually is.

It saves time for all concerned.

But, these issues are side issues to the intent of the original posts. If you have ideas or suggestions to improve the credit point system, please share them.

Cornelio

[bennitos Friend bennitosJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1717Downloads:0Uploads:39 Thanks: 39 Thanked: 474 times in 407 posts]

#313756

I agree that the credit system is not perfect but improving it might not very easy.

And its true that the current system gets abused quite alot, many useless posts that do not help the original question, spamming etc etc.

What might help:
No credits for responding in really old (read acient) threads. (now ppl start responding to really old posts from 1 or 2 years back to get credits)

Dont get credits for threads you started yourself (for tuturials might be an exception and if not you will get the thank you’s to compensate anyways)

No credits for unlicenced members (these members can not redeem, but they usually dont know that so are haunting for credits anyways)

Penalty system wich moderators can use if they find a clear credit haunting or spamming post like -500 credits next to a warning

You might have mentioned some of these things already cornelio but you post was quite long so i might have missed something 🙂

For me personally i think giving thank you’s is a matter of being polite, if someone does it with jost posting “hey thx for helping me out” (wich does not give credits) or uses a button that is already there for an official “thank you” i dont really care. If someone spends time to help you with a problem least you can do is say thank you for your time and effort.

[cgc0202 Friend cgc0202Join date: August 2007Posts: 2244Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 206 Thanked: 262 times in 1 posts]

#313767

Thanks bennitos,

The above way of saying Thank you, in the greeting to you, is a way to be polite that I use when I am soliciting help, Generally, I usually Thank, using the button, the person who provided the answer that solved the problem. In a very complex, multi-post threads, I may thank others, because their suggestions might have triggered just the correct answers later on.

I focused mainly on the disparity of the points gained compared with the “Thank you” and “Best Answer” total of the top individuals.

Your suggestions have slightly different twists from what I proposed. The focus though must be simplicity because the script of the Forum may not be able to handle what was proposed.

The best is to have some automation and partly manual input.

I agree with you, as I propose above that Moderators must play, to fine tune the credit system.

Suggestion:
<em>@bennitos 140081 wrote:</em><blockquote>
No credits for responding in really old (read acient) threads. (now ppl start responding to really old posts from 1 or 2 years back to get credits)

Dont get credits for threads you started yourself (for tuturials might be an exception and if not you will get the thank you’s to compensate anyways)
</blockquote>
Simplification or Alternative:
To avoid adding another script to the point system, how about this?
Close threads automatically after a period of time has elapsed. There is already a mechanism in forums to do this. People may still be able to view the old posts or link old post to a new thread, if unanswered.

Good tutorials must earn more points than most other forms of Thank yous. Also, a tutorial must not be rewarded based on the responses alone, but the overall quality. Since a well-written tutorial takes time to prepare and requires good communication, it must be rated by the users, the responses and clarifications. This is where moderated credits can come in.

Suggestion:
<em>@bennitos 140081 wrote:</em><blockquote>
Dont get credits for threads you started yourself (for tuturials might be an exception and if not you will get the thank you’s to compensate anyways)
</blockquote>
Simplification or Alternative:
How about no credit at all, or very low credits to origina and responses (like 1 or 2 points), for both initiating or responding to a thread? At least, it must only be at most 10% of a base credit to a well-deserved Thank You

Justification: The above alternative or simplication will not prevent nor discourage but will not reward:

1. Ditto posts
2. One liners (they earn the same points like any posts
3. Mutual admiration thank you posts

In other words, what must be rewarded in the credit system are those responses that resolves the problem.

Suggestion:
<em>@bennitos 140081 wrote:</em><blockquote>
No credits for unlicensed members (these members can not redeem, but they usually dont know that so are haunting for credits anyways)
</blockquote>
Simplification or Alternative:
Unlicensed members can only posts in public forums, not template based Forums. Why not just designate no credits earned in Public Forums?

For example, I see no reason why we should be getting points in this thread. If a Moderator happens to think that some people deserves to credits for valuable posts, then then, that is exercised.

We must not get points both for criticiising or the opposite of being too protective of Joomlart. Again, the focus must be giving points only to those that helped other Members.

Suggestion:
<em>@bennitos 140081 wrote:</em><blockquote>
Penalty system wich moderators can use if they find a clear credit haunting or spamming post like -500 credits next to a warning
</blockquote>

Agree completely. Also “reminders” to those who abuse Thank Yous, and those who do not Thank others who helped them. I do not know how many points to deduct, but the more important thing is to have a transparent set of policies of how it works, and implemented.

One thing I noticed was that sometimes, there are inner circle members who are not called upon to change their ways, but other less connected members are severely punished.

Minimizing abuse of Thank You for the following:

1. Mutual Admiration “Thank You”
2. Agreement “Thank You”

Instead of using the “Thank You” icon for the above, the “Agree” (Thumbs Up), “Disagree “(Thumbs Down) response must be used. No points earned either way, including any ditto posts. Moreover, to avoid anonymous abuse, just like the Thank you icon, the username of those who agree or disagree must be indicated.

I think with some more refinements, and input from others, it may be possible so that members like you, Scotty, and others who truly provide support to other members will get the appropriate credits that you deserve.

This may encourage others to help further. Good tutorials if well rewarded may solve a perennial problem of Joomlart.

Cornelio

[scotty Friend scottyJoin date: March 2008Posts: 2339Downloads:0Uploads:13 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 827 times in 595 posts]

#313838

http://www.joomlart.com/forums/images/images/credits_settings.gif

I think the credit system works OK. I only really know of one member here who abused it and he’s not here much any more anyway.

Most of the regulars here will notice I don’t help on the forums as much as I used to. There are several reasons for this. I got bored answering the same basic questions over and over. N00bs need to learn where that search button is! With the way the economy has gone (I’m in Ireland, one of the worst hit!) I just don’t have as much (FREE!) time on my hands to contribute. I tend to keep my support for more ‘interesting’ questions these days.

I think the credit redemption feature is a huge bonus of being a JA member. I don’t know of any other club that offers it or a similar system.

1 user says Thank You to scotty for this useful post

1. Phill

[bennitos Friend bennitosJoin date: May 2008Posts: 1717Downloads:0Uploads:39 Thanks: 39 Thanked: 474 times in 407 posts]

#313841

I agree its a great adition to the forum.

Just take a look at that picture you posted there scotty and it means i get a whopping 10 points bonus today because its my bday! 🙂

Im not that active anymore as i use to be because i got fed up with JA that they refuse to answer important questions. Annoyed with every suggestion or problem that i have spotted and reported that there was nothing they did with it. I will not say to users that they can use the ticket system if i know it wont be answered too.

After a while it felt like i was taking the heat for JA, for stuff they should have done theirselfs.

And like scotty said alot of basic questions over and over again wich can be easly solved with good documentation, many suggestions have been done inlcuding by me but never a response.

I like helping other people out but i dont like doing other people’s jobs. And mostly i do this to keep my knowlage up its good to dive in all kinda problems with different setups and get your know how in order.

[scotty Friend scottyJoin date: March 2008Posts: 2339Downloads:0Uploads:13 Thanks: 76 Thanked: 827 times in 595 posts]

#313845

happy birthday bennitos!

[mfcphil Friend mfcphilJoin date: September 2007Posts: 2866Downloads:3Uploads:218 Thanks: 211 Thanked: 388 times in 133 posts]

#313846

Hope you have had a great Birthday Bennitos 😉

[mihirc Friend mihircJoin date: December 2008Posts: 597Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 62 Thanked: 95 times in 39 posts]

#313848

Hello,

Since we are talking very very frankly, I will state my points here.

Probably I was referred to one of the posts here saying that “one of the members always asks for a live link” – To which I mostly reply that I would like to see the problem live and then just use Firebug to get it fixed. Ofcourse this is in no way an attempt to get my credits up. But the fact is everytime I post this it does give me extra credits.

Problem is that in the last few months I have helped a lot of ppl (i think :rolleyes:) but sadly the no. of thank yous i have got is just a few. Which doesnt show who is actually active on the forum or who is actually helping. Being a developer, for me getting a free joomlart membership for helping ppl is amazing, and I would love to get it, but as the thread starter suggests, there is always an possibility that ppl will abuse the system.

What I suggest :
Put in a line for url when a person is posting a question. Non-compulsory, but which will restrict posters like me gaining extra credits. 😀

Provided Best answer should also be administered by the site admins / mods, so that the right ppl get the credit (both meanings of the same word)

As suggested, remove the credits given to thread starters, except for tutorials.

Hope this message hasnt caused any trouble ,

Regards.
Mihir C.

[Phill Moderator PhillJoin date: February 2014Posts: 7013Downloads:40Uploads:77 Thanks: 917 Thanked: 2206 times in 1818 posts]

#313849

I only try and help as it helps me improve my own skills. I was very active on here for a while but got the hump with one particular poster and then got the hump after another left. I have also been very busy of late so have less free time.

I often see people commenting on how it used to be but as I have only been here since January I often struggle to see where people are coming from. So has the points system helped? When did it start and have people become more supportive as a result?

As for the points – thanked ratio the figures don’t really add up. I earned my first 6000 points helping others and redeemed for Dev membership. mfcphil then very kindly gave me another 6000 after I helped him offline to upgrade to J1.5. So my current 9000ish points with only 737 posts doesn’t quite add up. I have also been given other points for helping others offline. So don’t look at the figures and think that it tells the whole story.

[Phill Moderator PhillJoin date: February 2014Posts: 7013Downloads:40Uploads:77 Thanks: 917 Thanked: 2206 times in 1818 posts]

#313850

Happy Birthday Bennitos

Ooops, some more free credits.:eek:

[mihirc Friend mihircJoin date: December 2008Posts: 597Downloads:0Uploads:3 Thanks: 62 Thanked: 95 times in 39 posts]

#313852

<em>@phill luckhurst 140203 wrote:</em><blockquote>As for the points – thanked ratio the figures don’t really add up. I earned my first 6000 points helping others and redeemed for Dev membership. mfcphil then very kindly gave me another 6000 after I helped him offline to upgrade to J1.5. So my current 9000ish points with only 737 posts doesn’t quite add up. I have also been given other points for helping others offline. So don’t look at the figures and think that it tells the whole story.</blockquote>

Hello,

Exactly probably what I wanted to say but just didnt find the right words to express it. Many of us have helped a lot of users not only me. As phil says its really that we get to learn too when we help others.

Sadly fact is, phil found some guy who gave him a whopping 9k points for a single help post. I am sorry phil dont mean to offend you in anyway. But isnt that a bit wierd?

There has to be some reform to this system. Or, in one of the earlier posts I remember a person was just distributing his points free of cost to all members who basically “said that they hated Joomlart”.

Between,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BENNITOS!!! Probably a few credits as a party??? 😉

Regards,
Mihir Chhatre

[Author]

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