The need to reform the credit system

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  • Phill Moderator
    August 12, 2009 at 4:58 pm #313992

    I had that feeling. IMO, the invisible mode is silly as are anyone using it who is not a moderator.

    nefar Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 5:21 pm #313994

    I would agree that there are some point adjustments that could be made to the system. However, a full overhaul would take time and I just don’t know if it’s justified. Overall how many people really take advantage of the credit system? I’ve been here for awhile now and you pretty much see the same people “help” other members out. They are fairly easy to see with the ginormous amounts of points they have.

    I would say the majority of the forum are people that come here with a problem, ask for help and once answered they are gone. Most do not even bother with a “thank you” or “best answer”. Yes, you get the occasional spammer or abuser but no matter the system you use someone will figure out a way to abuse it.

    I know I’ve marked a few of my own questions best answers because I do not get a reply to my issue. I figure out the problem and then I post the solution. I do this for two reasons. 1.) It will help anyone else with the same issue. 2.) 6 months down the road when I have forgotten about the problem and it pops up again on another site I’m developing I can come back & look at my history and find the solution 😉

    Phill Moderator
    August 12, 2009 at 6:02 pm #314009

    I think we should stop rocking the boat. We have a good thing here so don’t put things into the minds of those that have the power to stop it.

    What should be stopped is people posting links in their sig’s, maybe until they have been thanked at least 20 times. That should stop the spamming gits. For me this issue is of a much higher importance.

    nefar Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 7:13 pm #314010

    <em>@phill luckhurst 140384 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    What should be stopped is people posting links in their sig’s, maybe until they have been thanked at least 20 times. That should stop the spamming gits. For me this issue is of a much higher importance.</blockquote>

    You would really only need to shut off links in public section or make it so only “members” can have links in their signatures. Not like the spammers are real paying members. I don’t know why they are wasting their time anyway. There is no PR to be passed on and getting a lot of back links from the same site will not improve their rankings.

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 7:13 pm #314011

    Maybe it was a warning “Salvo” to my spam posts above.:)

    Edit: corrected again. Back to Licensed member.

    Thanks or no thanks to the bizzare “Criedit System” I do not have to lift a finger, and I have more than enough points for five years regular license membership.

    This is one of the reasons why I am asking for reforms in the credit system. It must reward those who truly are helping others, not just those who can post the most, nor those who are passionate about their views, like myself.:) By the way, those were accumulated for a span of more than two years because I can be passionate about things I care about. Having said this.

    However passionate I am of my views, I may criticize people personally but I do not engage in personal attacks. This is my main request of everyone, so that we can have a more civil discourse.

    Scotty,

    Let me begin by agreeing with some points you raised:

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    At the end of day Joomlart is a business. If they thought they were giving excess redemptions away to users then I’m sure they would put a stop to it. </blockquote>

    You will not find me disagreeing on this. In fact, that is what I tell people who sometimes criticize Joomlart unfairly. I do criticize Joomlart myself, and Hung knows this very well. He even personally deleted quite a few of my posts. However, I do it without malice — it was a disagreement in perspectives.

    At the end of the day, Hung and the staff own the company. I am just a member using their work. I abide by the rules.

    And, if I do not like it, I just go elesewhere — which I did a number of times. I came back only when I find something good, like I came back last year when they came up with Teline II. Other than that, I do not even look at their new templates anymore, or at least I do not go beyond looking at the Demo.

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Personally, I don’t feel there …
    </blockquote>

    The key word there is “Personally”. That is what makes us all unique, and how we can contribute in a civil discourse. If we never forget that it is a “personal opinion” and that others may disagree or may not see it our way.

    The focus should be to engage in debating why we disagree or agree with the proposals or the idea put forward.

    If we disagree, there is no need to be doing this no matter how strong we feel about our own ideas or convictions:

    1. be posting “cry baby” retorts (my criticism of Tom)
    2. be racist (my criticism of “wooh…” something and VisiGod).

    There was another one here, who endorsed VisiGod racist comments against Joomlart staff. I was supposed to respond to that, but I was “unlicensed” and could not post at the time.

    It is not good also even to use more subtle blanket comments, like you did in this thread with the term “overanalyzing”. I cannot logically respond to a blanket comment “overanalyze”.

    The better thing to do is to engage me in a debate, to show the fallacy of my proposals or idea, as you did here:

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>Well yes and no. The thing is… really good posts get more than one thank you and thus DO get more points anyway. If you write a good tutorial it could be worth a lot of points if you get several thank you’s. Users only get 5 points for receiving a thank you so that’s 1,200 Thank You’s required for developer redemption. That’s a hell of a lot of ‘one liners’ to write! </blockquote>

    then we can have a more civil discourse. I can respond to the points you raised.

    If one does not have the time to engage in a debate — to agree or disagree based on merits, then we should avoid just posting blanket opinions. There’s a way to do that via the icons — thumbs up or thumbs down, or rating the thread as you feel it should.

    I am very sensitive about this because we have this on-going debate here in the US. It seems the winner or one prevailing is the one who can outshout everyone else. It is even worse in forums.

    “He who has the last word wins!” seems to be the rule.

    As to the “infamous person”, he is the perfect example of how the Credit system can be easily abused.

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>The last time I saw someone seriously abuse it the member (woohanetworks) was suspended and had his credits removed. I’m sure if the moderators notice similar behaviour again they will take similar action.</blockquote>

    I was informed about his situation in private. Based from what I was told, he was suspended for his abusive behavior, including racist comments, after a lot of members pointed this out. I was civil in pointing out to him, his evil ways.

    I was furious when he did not stop, especially when he insinuated himself into threads I started — ridiculing everyone who did not agree with him.

    When he did not stop, and when Chris opened the salvo to criticize him in a separate thread, I poured gasoline into the fire that Chris started. It finally got the attention of mfcphil yet again. So, upon consultation with Hung, mfcphil was given the go signal to warn him that if he did not mend his ways, he is out.

    He is an altar boy now, as far as I know — based from his recent posts.

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    … and had his credits removed.. .</blockquote>

    This is not correct. While he was suspended, and given a final warning, Joomlart SHOULD NOT and rightfully so (in my opinion) Joomlart DID NOT remove his credits) — it will be violation of the credit system.

    If you visit the original post, HE is not even listed among the top members who got the most “Thank you’s” and “Best Answers” – but HE is THIRD HIGHEST in total credit points — a great testament to his “writing abilities” especially because it was a feat he was able to accomplish in less than a year, at the time before he was suspended and given ultimatum.

    If Joomlart wanted to avoid such abuse of the credit system, it must not personalize it, i.e., it must not apply to individuals they do not like. To be fair to all Joomlart must reform the credit system — which is the whole point of the original post.

    HE is only the “poster boy” of this abuse… there are many more but it is easy to hide “one liners” or nonsense posts. We all do “one liners”. I do it myself, and this is also evident practice, as can be gleamed from the responses here.

    It should not be banned. It enlivens the discussion sometimes. But, do such posts deserve more points than a well deserved Thank you?

    My poisition, as proposed reform, is that they should not get points at all or very low points.

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Users only get 5 points for receiving a thank you so that’s 1,200 Thank You’s required for developer redemption. .</blockquote>

    That is even worse. A well deserved Thank you gets 5 points while a one liner gets 10-12 points (visit and do the math with points gained in my examples in posts #33-38.

    In my proposed revision, apart from the “base automated credit points” for a well-deserved Thank you, Moderators, based on a very transparent set of rules may credit more points well-deserved postings, like Tutorials or any posting that deserved more merit than was due.

    One example I used was Tom’s (tcraw) discovery of the illegal use of Joomlart templates by an Indian company. That might have saved Joomlart a lot of money (i,e,m avoiding lost revenues). So, Tom asked rhetorically: Where is my 6,000 points for having uncovered this scam? (or something like that). Tom did get a lot of Thank you’s for his effort but he could have gotten 10 Thank you’s and that is only 50 points if you are correct about the credits for a Thank you.

    He earned more points for his one liners — including his “cry baby” come backs if he does not like the opinion of another poster.

    If I were Joomlart, through the Moderators and a very transparent rule that must pply to everyone, he should be given the highest point allowed thourhg a reformed point system (manually provided by a Moderator, and rightly noted not just in PM so others would know what is good work).

    Like everyone else, if one liners are allowed and I think they should, there must be distinction from personal attacks. I pointed this out once when I saw too many “cry baby” come backs from Tom, that he should not be doing that. It does not contribute to the discourse, and it is insulting — a personal attack. This should be distinguished from criticizing the validity or merit of a proposed idea or opinion.

    <em>@scotty 140328 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    required for developer redemption. … That’s a hell of a lot of ‘one liners’ to write!
    </blockquote>

    I just demonstrated above (#333-38) how easy it is to accumulate points. Once again, the credit system does not discriminate how you get your points, whether

    1. a legitimate and well-deserved Thank you.
    2. a thank you to a Thank you post
    3. a Thank you for agreeing to a post
    4. a one liner
    5. a nonsense post
    6. a spam that does not get detected by Moderators

    except for the last, all the rest gets almost the same points. And if you are correct, the well-deserved Thank you, get only an extra 5 points.

    So, how difficult it is to rack 6,000 with a combination of #2-5? I just proved in posts #33-38 that it is not difficult to do so. And, if one is diabolical and cunning enough, one can outsmart even the most meticulous Moderator here.

    In contrast: How much effort would it take to write something that will benefit members to get a well-deserved Thank you?

    Let’s be frank about this, many wants to garner points. Otherwise, no one should be reminding others that they should be Thanked for a good answer. I consider it tacky, so I do not place it in my signature.

    However, I think those who do a good job helping others deserve to get their due. Thus, this Quixotic effort in this thread, even if more than likely, Joomlart may reject it again, as it did last time or for other proposals I and many others espoused.

    Again, to end this novella, as you stated in a different way:

    “Joomlart will have the last say.”

    and as you also stated, they will take the consequences.

    I accept that. Every member should. And when I could not stand it. I recuse myself from the discussion, sometimes for months. It allows me to regain my calm. .

    Cornelio
    Before this post, my Total Points was 15,887

    scotty Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 7:42 pm #314013

    One thing is for certain Cornelio. No one can ever accuse you of posting ‘one liners’! :laugh:

    wiery Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 7:43 pm #314014

    The members here should appreciate the fact that a credit system even exhists. I know I do. Most if not all other Joomla template club sites do not have a credit system that allows you to use your credits for memberships and such. Very great concept for us users. 😀

    bennitos Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 8:12 pm #314019

    <em>@wiery 140392 wrote:</em><blockquote>The members here should appreciate the fact that a credit system even exhists. I know I do. Most if not all other Joomla template club sites do not have a credit system that allows you to use your credits for memberships and such. Very great concept for us users. :D</blockquote>

    Im sure that everyone who posted in here appriciate the credit system, i know i do at least.
    Its something extra they offer and has benifits for both sides it helps keeping the forum active and active members get redemptions.

    I handed out the whopping 2 credits (some had 4 because it was already late :P) because i thought it was funny and also as a way to show…. credits are just credits nothing more….

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 8:16 pm #314021

    <em>@nefar 140368 wrote:</em><blockquote>I would agree that there are some point adjustments that could be made to the system. However, a full overhaul would take time and I just don’t know if it’s justified. Overall how many people really take advantage of the credit system? I’ve been here for awhile now and you pretty much see the same people “help” other members out. They are fairly easy to see with the ginormous amounts of points they have.

    I would say the majority of the forum are people that come here with a problem, ask for help and once answered they are gone. Most do not even bother with a “thank you” or “best answer”. Yes, you get the occasional spammer or abuser but no matter the system you use someone will figure out a way to abuse it.

    I know I’ve marked a few of my own questions best answers because I do not get a reply to my issue. I figure out the problem and then I post the solution. I do this for two reasons. 1.) It will help anyone else with the same issue. 2.) 6 months down the road when I have forgotten about the problem and it pops up again on another site I’m developing I can come back & look at my history and find the solution ;)</blockquote>

    However hated (and loved) Steve Jobs is he remains true to his ideals.

    He is a perfectionist. If he can make it better, he will do it. The same principle that Rainer Maria Rilke advised a young artist in “Letters to a Young Poet”.

    To rephrase Rilke, his advice was: Do not do something because others will like it, or praise you. Do it because you must. Do it because it is the very essence of your existence.

    Rilke of course stated it in a more poetic way, but his words will likely be lost here.

    Steve Jobs of course not only follow the same work ethic, he also shared his vision with others and made quite a bit of many pennies following his own philosophy in life.

    Thus, no matter how small Apple’s percentage in any business they make, they is no question that they make waves, and copied by their own critics.

    Some disparagers of Apple and Steve Jobs retort was that what Apple (Jobs) touch did not always turn into gold. The simple answer to that is another inventor. Great discoveries come from many mistakes and errors. It is the tenacity to follow up with your dreams. I think he experimented more than 1000 times before he got the ligh bulb to work.

    What you are saying above though is different… it is difficult and will take time, so we should accept the status quo.

    The status quo is that,

    1. there has been a persistent unrest and dissatisfaction
    2. for whatever reason, Joomlart has lost many paying members

    The instution of the Credit system was supposed to help avert them from happening.

    <em>@nefar 140368 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Overall how many people really take advantage of the credit system? I’ve been here for awhile now and you pretty much see the same people “help” other members out.)</blockquote>

    That is my point and many others here who responded with their own suggestions to improve it, were saying exactly. It is not working. In fact, many people do not even know how it works, or that it helps them.


    If all members knew that if they post 300 “one liner” posts they will get free membership, do you think there will be more posts here?

    I showed a Demo of how easy to do that in posts #33-38 in a span of a few hours. It is easy to avoid detection — just respond to different posts. State something slightly coherent and avoid spamming.

    How difficult it is to post

    1. one (1) “one liner” post a day => you only have to do it 300 days a year
    2. two (2) “one liner” posts a day => you only have to do it 150 days a year
    3. three (3) “one liner” posts a day => you only have to do it 100 days a year

    I am sure you get the picture, and you will get a free regular membership each year, with all the templates galore you want, for as long as you like Joomlart templates.

    Double the effort above and you get free Developer membership license, and you have the added bonus of using all the templates in as many domains you want. You can even share your services, using Joomlart templates, as starting point.

    Of course, if more members learn this secret, Joomlart will lose money that way, and they will definitely make change.

    The point of this rather Quixotic thread, is to find a way to establish a more fair “Credit system” that will help members, be fair to those who are truly helping in the Forums, as well as develop a system that will be helpful to Joomlart in the end. After all, let us not forget that Joomlart is a commercial company. It will survive only as long as it will retain enough paying subscribers to pay its staff.

    There must be no delusion that Joomlart has institured this Credit system because of a sense of altruism from Hung or Joomlart.

    You made many good points above, and I will let others and perhaps Joomlart to look at them.

    Cornelio
    Before this post, my Total Points was 15,899

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 8:18 pm #314022

    <em>@scotty 140391 wrote:</em><blockquote>One thing is for certain Cornelio. No one can ever accuse you of posting ‘one liners’! :laugh:</blockquote>

    Scotty: Ah, you have not looked at my history.:) Cornelio 15,911 before this.

    hanifahmed Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 8:28 pm #314023

    <em>@scotty 140391 wrote:</em><blockquote>One thing is for certain Cornelio. No one can ever accuse you of posting ‘one liners’! :laugh:</blockquote>
    Sometimes, one liners are all you need to explain something.
    Sometimes writing too much in a forum post makes it look a bit wierd (and there are certain users who can simply write one line and leave it at that but always feel like they HAVE TO PUT their own personal opinion into that post and take it off topic, referring to lots of other posts in the process, but this user I think has not participated in this thread).

    I mean, I could’ve wrote “Sometimes, one liners are all you need to explain something.” and then waited for Cornelio or someone else to ask me to explain myself then wrote another one liner, possibly one of the quotes from above that I have just said.

    But either way, off topic and completely useless one-liners should be frowned upon and only useful ones adhered to.

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 12, 2009 at 8:50 pm #314031

    <em>@scotty 140391 wrote:</em><blockquote>One thing is for certain Cornelio. No one can ever accuse you of posting ‘one liners’! :laugh:</blockquote>

    Scotty,

    And you are correct, most of my posts are not one liners. And it takes me hours to research them sometimes, like the original thread, to ensure that I have my facts correct.

    And I am sure you know, as your responses to my post where you did help me quite a bit, sometimes it really takes quite a deal of of effort to help someone.

    I have been doing that even before there was any point system.

    In fact, when things were very bad, and when Joomlart stated categorically that they wil not answer any stuff beyond the template issues, I even introduced the idea that members like me should band together so that we may create a “Collaborative Support Group”

    I need that myself, ss you may have inferred from some of my “request for help” post because, I need help myself. I have no background in webdesign nor software or scripting. I know what I want, but I need help too.

    So, if we all realize that we need help, one way or another, why don’t we find a way to help each other that will be mutualy beneficial?

    To create a good website and make it reach the target visitors require many things:

    1. goog content
    2. good template
    3. good hosting service

    and more. The Joomlart forum cannot and will not likely be the answer to all the above. I am willing to pay good money to get help in them. I also know that it will cost me less money if those desiring similar help can band together to share common goals.

    That is the essense of the Collaborative Support Group I have in mind.

    I even invited you in private to help in such a group. And, I take this opportunity again to extend this invitation to everyone. Such a collaborative support groupp is not to conflict with Joomlart Support Forum, but perhaps even to augment what could not be done here.

    In the meantime, when I want to get a break from the tedium of what I do, I initiate Quixotic efforts, like this thread. However, I am realistic that it may never be considered.

    It does not prevent me from dreaming for something better, or dreaming of a world where we can interact better.

    What I know is that if I recruit enough people who believes in the same vision, it becomes reality. I have an idea for example, that to this day, long after I left my country remains an on-going national project. It started with just a few sophomore students who believed in a dream. Many tried to destroy our desire to start it, but against all odds, it was started. The rest is history.

    This effort to reform this Credit system therefore is just like those efforts — to create a more fair world to live in, be it in internet or real life.

    The concept of the Collaborative Support Group is along the same vein. While it may address issues like the one stated above, as envisioned, it is also to test a different business plan — create a more fair commercial entity, as opposed to the economic institution that we have now that led to the stock market crash in 1999 and again in 2008.

    Cornelio
    Before this post, my Total Points was 15,928

    sunrise Friend
    August 13, 2009 at 1:47 pm #314105

    I personally think the system works fine. Things could change, maybe improve, but as someone said, it would maybe take more work than it is worth. But us members are not the ones suffering for the most part. If someone wants to take advantage, they might, but as someone esle said, not many do. Lets be happy and thankful that we have this system at all, and use it as best we can. If it gets misused I’m sure JA will do something about it, and in the mean time we can use our efforts on helping those who are writing in with questions and problems.

    mfcphil Friend
    August 13, 2009 at 4:28 pm #314123

    I think you could make hundreds of changes, but the people who want to abuse the credits system to cater for their own needs will just find another way around the changes.

    For me it has its faults, but it does a great job in the main! 😉

    Arvind Chauhan Moderator
    August 13, 2009 at 7:33 pm #314133

    mfcphil;140528I think you could make hundreds of changes, but the people who want to abuse the credits system to cater for their own needs will just find another way around the changes.

    For me it has its faults, but it does a great job in the main! 😉


    Well said, Can’t agree more    .

    Nothing can be fool proof, Credit system is in place in support of active members, who try to contribute to the JA Community, it is obvious that some would try to take advantage, but that is not the priority of the Credit system, as long as good guys are getting the advantage of the system its good. Yes, the system can be fine tuned to minimize undue advantage of the current system, but that would involves custom coding ( i presume).

    The only suggestion i can think of currently is to disable credits earning in public forums such as >>feedback >> General Forums >> J Share etc… and restrict credit earning to Template forums only… or support forums only…

    regards

    Arvind

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