The need to reform the credit system

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  • Arvind Chauhan Moderator
    August 17, 2009 at 7:44 pm #314562

    cgc0202;141059joeflynn,
    My advocacy to reform the Credit system, which should encourage others helping each other seems to be falling on deaf ears though.

    Cornelio

    Dear Cornelio,

    The whole thread regarding Credit System reform is under consideration, but it is going to take time as it is going to require bit of custom coding…. Which is but obvious going to take time… the main emphasis would be given to the actual helpers… it would be really difficult to rule out opportunistic guys… as nothing can be fool proof.

    Hope to see a better system in place at an earliest.

    regards

    Arvind

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 18, 2009 at 12:45 am #314590

    Edit: As agreed upon by Arvind and I, posts #61 to #64 were moved from a different thread. This response (#62) must be read in the context of this move. I am sure I would have reacted differently to Arvind’s post above, had the news of Joomlart’s decision on this matter was reported here. More than likely, I might not have posted in the other thread what Arvind quoted above, had it been announced publicly here that Joomlart was doing something.

    I and perhaps others would have welcomed such a development. It is this lack of transparency that sometimes frustrates some members.

    Since Arvind decided not to delete but just move these responses, I decided not to make any changes in the original post shown directly below my signature.

    I applaud Arvind’s resolution of the matter. I believe that some posts must not be deleted or some threads must not be closed simply because we do not like what is expressed. Of course, I have to add that such as policy must be implemented with prudence.

    As they say, people may speak their mind, but not to shout fire in a crowded building. There ought to be consequences for such reprehensible actions because they go beyond the bounds of free speech. Moreover, even if I believe in free speech, forums like this in a sense has its own limits on what is allowed. Eventually, Hung and Joomlart must decide those limits. The only proviso must be that those limits are transparent so that they are applied equally to any transgression.

    Cornelio
    ******************
    <em>@drarvindc 141065 wrote:</em><blockquote>Dear Cornelio,

    The whole thread regarding Credit System reform is under consideration, but it is going to take time as it is going to require bit of custom coding…. Which is but obvious going to take time… the main emphasis would be given to the actual helpers… it would be really difficult to rule out opportunistic guys… as nothing can be fool proof.

    Hope to see a better system in place at an earliest.

    regards

    Arvind</blockquote>

    Hi Arvind,

    To be frank, it may take some time, if ever at all, before I may spend any more time and effort suggesting any reform in relation to Joomlart practices. In a gazillion threads, since 2007, I have wasted so much time advocating for changes that many members have been clamoring for also.

    Some were taken down personally by Hung because they were too controversial. Since Hung is the owner, I respect his decision. After all, if my views will adversely affect Joomlart, it will be Hung and the staff who will suffer most. For the record, I have never done anything with the intention of causing harm to Hung or Joomlart business interest.

    This one takes the cake. When I first joined, the membership was quite high. A year later here is a quote from Chris’ (questbg) post:

    <blockquote> “with over 21250 satisfied members (and counting)…” </blockquote>
    visit:
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/showpost.php?p=66385&postcount=22

    Now that disappeared. Why? Just look at the current total active membership.

    I watched it go down dramatically during the first big controversy about the frequency of the number of templates per month, sometime in August 2008. Many of the vocal members vowed they will not renew their membership.

    One of my suggestions was for Joomlart to make it prominent as far back as August 2008 that there will be a change to one template per month by August 2009. And that this should be displayed in the page where the membership fees Ad is located.

    Those suggestions have fallen into deaf ears, like many of my suggestions. Instead, it was just in a thread, that for the most part is not so much visited, especially by potential subscribers:

    Important changes to the JA Templates Club
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/important-changes-to-the-ja-templates-club/

    I predicted that if they would not do that, come August 2009, there will be another backlash. And indeed, when finally the said thread was made prominent by Joomlart more recently, the backlash came true, as I predicted. Just check the more recent posts in

    Important changes to the JA Templates Club
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/important-changes-to-the-ja-templates-club/

    I am concerned with the significant decrease in membership. Just consider the respondent joeflynn in this thread/ And she is not isolated. Why? There was again a dramatic decrease in technical support in the forum, especially because many of those helping. the top posters — Scotty, bennitos, phil, and others have burnt out, by their own admission.

    And what was the overwhelming reaction of the respondents to the reform (members and Moderators, including you and McPhil):

    Everything is just fine.

    <em>@mfcphil 140528 wrote:</em><blockquote>I think you could make hundreds of changes, but the people who want to abuse the credits system to cater for their own needs will just find another way around the changes.

    For me it has its faults, but it does a great job in the main! ;)</blockquote>

    <em>@drarvindc 140544 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Well said, Can’t agree more    .

    Nothing can be fool proof, Credit system is in place in support of active members, who try to contribute to the JA Community, it is obvious that some would try to take advantage, but that is not the priority of the Credit system, as long as good guys are getting the advantage of the system its good. Yes, the system can be fine tuned to minimize undue advantage of the current system, but that would involves custom coding ( i presume).

    The only suggestion i can think of currently is to disable credits earning in public forums such as >>feedback >> General Forums >> J Share etc… and restrict credit earning to Template forums only… or support forums only…

    regards

    Arvind</blockquote>

    Wow, really. A drop from 21,000 to 5,000 paying membership and everything is fine?

    Frankly, I was very disappointed by both your responses. What both of you should be aware is that as Moderators, you cease being simply members. And, as Moderators, as the name implies, you are supposed to moderate — impartial, not inject your personal view into a debate in a forum. And, unless you are not fully aware: Your perspective in a sense carry the weight of that of Joomlart.

    That is my disappointment with both of you. Not because you disagree with my point of view. You are Moderators. Others, like Scotty or any member may disagree with me, but their perspective is theirs alone.

    For the same reason, I would never volunteer as Moderator here, because I do not want to give up my privilege to express my opinion. And, I already know first hand that in a number of instances, Hung did not agree to many of my suggestions.:)

    I planned initially in responding sarcastically, but why waste my time?

    The need to reform the credit system
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/the-need-to-reform-the-credit-system/

    Now you respond in this thread that they are considering the thread. If I did not say anything here, would we have ever known something was being done?

    How come you did not say so in the thread itself? And, how come there was no response at all from Joomlart?

    I and interested members don’t even know what is being considered, for discussion. What if it is the crap or palliative change that will not cause any change?

    After all, everything is fine. Correct?

    So, tell me why I should even care, anymore?

    Cornelio
    **************

    Arvind Chauhan Moderator
    August 18, 2009 at 10:50 am #314618

    Dear Cornelio,

    Frankly, I was very disappointed by both your responses. What both of you should be aware is that as Moderators, you cease being simply members. And, as Moderators, as the name implies, you are supposed to moderate — impartial, not inject your personal view into a debate in a forum. And, unless you are not fully aware: Your perspective in a sense carry the weight of that of Joomlart.

    That is my disappointment with both of you. Not because you disagree with my point of view. You are Moderators. Others, like Scotty or any member may disagree with me, but their perspective is theirs alone.

    I would consider it sad, if you feel that being a moderator i am not supposed to air my personal views. I dont see much difference between you and me, I am A JA Member (i paid for the membership), and i have been helping in the forums way before i was Moderator. the only privilege i have is that i can delete posts or close the threads.

    Besides, we are not paid for this Mod work and I dont expect any either.

    Anyways, I shall henceforth desist from airing my personal views or suggestions in forums.

    The need to reform the credit system
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/the-need-to-reform-the-credit-system/

    Now you respond in this thread that they are considering the thread. If I did not say anything here, would we have ever known something was being done?

    How come you did not say so in the thread itself? And, how come there was no response at all from Joomlart?

    I replied to this thread coz the discussion from the earlier thread spilled here too (this thread topic is different then the thread in question), so i thought i should let friends know that the earlier thread is under consideration by Mr. Hung, so that this thread wont continue as Credit Reform Thread. May be I was wrong.

    And, how come there was no response at all from Joomlart?

    Your perspective in a sense carry the weight of that of Joomlart.

    At once you say we the Mods are voice from JA and now when i have replied you still wish for a confirmation from JA ?

    I Shall henceforth desist from making any personal comments in such threads. I feel sad that we (if Mod) are no longer considered a part of JA Community. We are no different is all i would say.

    On a personal Note I am sorry and wish to end this conversation here. Please go on with your routine thread topic. If required let me know, I shall remove these posts so that this thread stays on the topic in debate.

    I wish not to be quoted again for this post of mine Please.

    Arvind

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 18, 2009 at 12:09 pm #314627

    <em>@drarvindc 141140 wrote:</em><blockquote>Dear Cornelio,

    If required let me know, I shall remove these posts so that this thread stays on the topic in debate.

    Arvind</blockquote>

    That may be best Arvind,

    Delete relevant posts, mine and yours here, and whatever you think is needed to expunge this thread — including this response (after you read it).

    If you want, you may place your response (#11) in the appropriate thread (see link below) — with a note left in position #11 in this thread to go there. This will ensure that whatever I stated in post #10 would be addressed properly, except your response #11 will be in the appropriate thread.


    The need to reform the credit system
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/the-need-to-reform-the-credit-system/

    You may want to include the actual response link though, so no one has to read all the posts in that very long thread.

    Don’t worry, I won’t respond to it, as I responded here. 🙂 I already aired my point. Thorn out of my thumb.

    Sorry if I hurt your feelings. But, I do feel strongly that when someone decides to be a Moderator, there is a change in role whether one is paid or is a volunteer.

    Imagine if a Moderator shuts somebody up (i.e., deletes or closes the post of someone) but not another who may be in transgression of the rules, also. I have seen that happen in the forum. A Moderator may not even be aware that the aforementioned was what (s)he was doing.

    The best analogy that I could make are Umpires in Little League in baseball. I do not think they are paid either.

    The above is personal perspective. I just have to say it. I do not expect others to believe the same way or for Joomlart to accept my perspective. Do as you believe, if you feel strongly. I do not make the rules here.

    But, even if I stated the aforementioned perspective; above all, I believe that each one of us must be free to express themselves within the limits of the policies. I do not expect to be the arbiter of such policy.

    And, don’t worry. I have decided that I will try to control myself from suggesting stuff to reform anything about Joomlart. Although sometimes I just cannot help myself.:)

    Cornelio

    scotty Friend
    August 18, 2009 at 2:42 pm #314636

    pfft, this thread has got way longer than it ever should have. Cornelio, the redemption system is not automated. Joomlart must either approve or reject a request for redemption. If they see a redemption request where they feel the user has abused the credit system I’m sure they will refuse redemption (as they did with Wooohs first request).

    It’s not like there is major credit fraud taking place ffs. It’s just a few points here and there and not enough, in my opinion, to warrant an overhaul of the entire credit system. I’m sure there are more productive things JA could be spending their time on.

    I’m unsubscribing from this thread now. It’s just going downhill.

    joeflynn Friend
    August 18, 2009 at 2:55 pm #314637

    I would like to disagree with the idea, Arvind, that you should stop speaking your mind. You gave several good reasons for doing so, then react to one persons argument who is having trouble with the whole system.

    If there is a matter that is official that you have to speak as “The Moderator”, then let us know…otherwise, speak as a long time JA member.

    It is usually better to err on the side of more communication than less.

    nefar Friend
    August 18, 2009 at 5:02 pm #314644

    <em>@cgc0202 141098 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    So, tell me why I should even care, anymore?

    Cornelio
    **************</blockquote>

    I used to write mini-novels much like yourself. I’ve always been one to have long posts especially if I’m passionate about something. That being said, I found out months ago not many really appreciate the effort so I stopped “caring” long ago.

    Phill Moderator
    August 18, 2009 at 6:07 pm #314649

    <em>@drarvindc 141140 wrote:</em><blockquote>Dear Cornelio,

    I would consider it sad, if you feel that being a moderator i am not supposed to air my personal views. I dont see much difference between you and me, I am A JA Member (i paid for the membership), and i have been helping in the forums way before i was Moderator. the only privilege i have is that i can delete posts or close the threads.

    Besides, we are not paid for this Mod work and I dont expect any either.

    Anyways, I shall henceforth desist from airing my personal views or suggestions in forums.

    </blockquote>

    Sorry to quote you but I really think it is important for all members of a team to air their personal views. In my experience it opens up discussions and allows the free flow of ideas. Is this suddenly a communist forum? So stick to it mate, it is good to hear and understand everyones views.

    I did volunteer as a moderator but nobody responded so I assume I am unloved, unwanted and shall now go and cry in a corner;)

    mfcphil Friend
    August 18, 2009 at 6:36 pm #314652

    Cornelio sorry to hear you do not welcome my views…. I will not get involved in your posts in the future.
    But unless I find I’m breaking some rules here I will offer my opinion to whoever else wants to read it! but not in your posts!!

    And Phil I think you would be an excellent moderator…and will suggest my opinion to Hung on this matter!

    cgc0202 Friend
    August 19, 2009 at 4:41 pm #314749

    Don’t worry guys.

    I have decided that I will try to control myself from suggesting any more “reforms” regarding Joomlart and the Forum. I may still do once in awhile it when I really feel passionate about an issue.

    I will restrict myself to asking questions relevant to my needs and responding to issues raised and perhaps once in awhile when I can help some people, I will.

    This will be my last post in this thread.

    Cornelio

    sunrise Friend
    August 20, 2009 at 3:24 pm #314904

    <em>@phill luckhurst 141175 wrote:</em><blockquote>I did volunteer as a moderator but nobody responded so I assume I am unloved, unwanted and shall now go and cry in a corner;)</blockquote>

    Poor Unloved! One of the bad things about email and forums is that noone can give you a hankerchief ro something to wipe your tears when you feel like that.

    No, I’m kidding. I too think you’ll do fine. And you are not unloved. Maybe people are just too busy and don’t know how to say “thank you” or “I appreciate what you are doing”. So get out of that corner, and get back to moderating and whatever else you are doing. And thanks for taking the time to do it. 🙂

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