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Why so complex… and can I override the skeleton of the layout?

Forums    Public Forums    JAT3 2.0 for Joomla 1.5    Why so complex... and can I override the skeleton of the layout?
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  • unleashit Friend
    November 30, 2010 at 7:42 am #156910

    Hi, I’m trying to determine if T3 makes sense for someone like me, who creates templates from scratch…. PSD to html… and likes to have complete control of the code. The basic idea is good. There are some GREAT features like mobile support and the menus, but I am not really liking the concept of having to override a bunch stuff coming from the plugins directory.

    And the code that is there is not clean…. there are two many divs, classes ect. then are needed. Why not use decedent selectors and inheritance? Cleaner code is easier, not harder to work with. I don’t know why the big Joomla template clubs are all guilty of this. Do they assume its helpful for beginners?

    My 2 cents: This system is much more complicated then it needs to be. Any part of the framework that is html and css, should be in the normal Joomla template folder (with an easier structure) so there is only one layer. I understand why you did it the way you did I think… so the entire framework can be updated. But it’s not worth it… I’d suggest leaving the php classes in there and update that, but leave the design alone in the normal place.

    But… like I said, there are some nice things here. I’d be happy to give this a chance, if I can figure out a way to at least have the control I need. I found some files in the directory /plugins/system/jat3/base-theme/pages/ like default.php. Can I override these in my template directory? I need to be able to add code right after the <body> tag (but before the wrapper), and add my own class to the body. If I add code to the top of the “Header” block (using the default layout), it actually appears inside some divs and not where I want it.

    I have read all the docs in the wiki and have learned a lot, and can find nothing about this.

    Thanks in advance.

    korb Friend
    December 1, 2010 at 4:00 am #364926

    Hello,

    <em>@unleashit 206011 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    My 2 cents: This system is much more complicated then it needs to be. Any part of the framework that is html and css, should be in the normal Joomla template folder (with an easier structure) so there is only one layer. I understand why you did it the way you did I think… so the entire framework can be updated. But it’s not worth it… I’d suggest leaving the php classes in there and update that, but leave the design alone in the normal place.</blockquote>

    All the code is quite modular, for instance if a block having some positions supose to load some modules, but there is no published module for those positions, the entire block is not loaded. It is skipped from the start. Similarly if you disable usertools, no code will be loaded. Same for Compression scripts. If a Menu System is selected in the front-end, the other menu systems’ scripts are not loaded and so on…

    The framework was developed to stand as a starting point for every type of website, from very simple to very complex. A lot of things are simplified so you can manage them into the back-end. There is nothing better so far.

    <em>@unleashit 206011 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    But… like I said, there are some nice things here. I’d be happy to give this a chance, if I can figure out a way to at least have the control I need. I found some files in the directory /plugins/system/jat3/base-theme/pages/ like default.php. Can I override these in my template directory? I need to be able to add code right after the <body> tag (but before the wrapper), and add my own class to the body. If I add code to the top of the “Header” block (using the default layout), it actually appears inside some divs and not where I want it.
    </blockquote>
    Yes you can! Please create a folder pages inside theme (or template) and override the page you want inside this new folder.

    In conclusion, you can make it a try, you can do everything and it is easy-pizzy-japanese 🙂
    I hope this is helpful.

    Regards,
    Danny

    veeco Friend
    December 1, 2010 at 4:46 pm #365021

    When you start to understand T3 concept.. you’ll begin to say “Why so flexible… “.. 🙂

    Regarding your question for create template from scratch… nope.. you’ll start with default layout structure (mostly from T3 Blank)… but if you have lot of time you might start from scratch (media65 provide dreamweaver plugin to start from scratch)…

    umair2hot Friend
    December 1, 2010 at 6:29 pm #365023

    Help ful, thanks!

    unleashit Friend
    December 2, 2010 at 1:29 am #365044

    Hi Danny, how’s it going. I remember seeing you over at Virtuemart too.

    Yes thanks, I actually figured out how to make the override for default.php and was able to do what I needed. Good news that it is flexible and also about some code not being published if not needed. But I still have the same opinion about it that I had before, which is that the whole html/css aspect of the template should be in the templates folder with no overriding neccessary. Also still feel the same that the html/css could still do what it needed with a lot less code (like use decendent selectors instead of having one or more classes on every tag).

    Veeco… I do undersand the T3 concept actually… and I have built many Joomla templates from scratch so I think I have an idea about what I’m saying. Personally, I don’t have much of a use for a wysiwyg interface for changeing layouts (beyond the module manager)… even on larger sites. The normal way of doing it is either with the module manager one module at a time, or with a couple of quick IF statements in the template. In fact, this is not harder in my opinion than learning the T3 interface even for a beginner who is building templates.

    I do like the concept of introducing module groups (i.e. blocks) to Joomla. Ideally they could be integrated into the module manager and not require an extra interface… or just kept as an XML file in the template and the designer then echos the blocks instead of individual positions to their main template (I believe that’s how its done with Drupal). At any rate, some type of system that is more KISS… would be my ideal template framework.

    I’m not knocking T3 or the others. Like I said, there are some good benefits. These frameworks were understandably built for the needs of the companies themselves and their workflow… and also I think for to provide a fancy WYSIWYG interface for their more beginning customers. Lets face it… it looks impressive to have all those options… even if you rarely need them. That said, it’s free so it’s hard to complain! Right now I think the pros outweigh the cons, so until something comes out that I like better (or god help me create one for myself), I’m going to build a site with T3 and see how it goes.

    korb Friend
    December 2, 2010 at 1:53 am #365047

    <em>@unleashit 206321 wrote:</em><blockquote>Hi Danny, how’s it going. I remember seeing you over at Virtuemart too.</blockquote>
    Same guy mate, same guy.

    <em>@unleashit 206321 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    I do like the concept of introducing module groups (i.e. blocks) to Joomla. Ideally they could be integrated into the module manager and not require an extra interface… or just kept as an XML file in the template and the designer then echos the blocks instead of individual positions to their main template (I believe that’s how its done with Drupal). At any rate, some type of system that is more KISS… would be my ideal template framework.</blockquote>
    You can still develop your own blocks, with your own style classes, just like developing a classic template on an index.php file with module positions, but the module positions are split into several blocks to make it even more modular.
    With T3 you can do this way: have a layout to call a single file block. This file block is just like an index.php, with everything inside. So you can do a hybrid template having all other benefits of the framework. That is the idea mate. Make it modulArt!

    <em>@unleashit 206321 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Right now I think the pros outweigh the cons, so until something comes out that I like better (or god help me create one for myself), I’m going to build a site with T3 and see how it goes.</blockquote>
    Everyone in this world have a style of his own, you could develop your own template framework, exactly how you see it best to be for your daily workflow.

    Good luck mate,
    Danny

    unleashit Friend
    December 2, 2010 at 2:10 am #365048

    Yes I know about the ability to create your own blocks and everything. But for one thing, the css from from the plugins folder is always being included. IMO, it’s fine if the “blank” template has some html/css to start out. I like that in many cases it is indeed a faster way to get started with a design. But what I can’t get myself to really like is the idea of having to always “override” the css from another templates.css file. I’d rather just have direct access to the file and make my changes and additions there.

    I’m probably not the only one who feels this way… I know there are “a lot” of people who won’t even give Joomla a chance because the Joomla communinty does not tend to emphasize clean code. But yes, you’re totally right. If I want the prefect framework… I better get cracking 😉

    Thanks again for your help Danny and thanks Joomlart, hope this sounds more like constructive contritism than complaining. Out of the other J frameworks, yours seems to come to the front.

    korb Friend
    December 2, 2010 at 2:23 am #365050

    Thanks for your ideas. Maybe we can develop some constructive techniques in the future releases. D

    veeco Friend
    December 7, 2010 at 2:53 am #365502

    @unleashit if you like to have total control of T3 Blank.. you might start with system/jat3/base-themes/default/page/default.php
    you can read the flow with top-down approach. You can see all the structure available there like inset1,inset2, content-mass-top, etc… you can add (or even delete) some of the block there or even add custom module (even JA suggest you’re adding module on block level not from this default.php)

    there are some T3 specific function there.. you can refer to system/jat3/core/common.php for the reference..

    Basically, create template from scratch… it’s possible.. but most JA user prefer to have frontend editing via firebug

    hope this helps…

    rexkramer Friend
    December 7, 2010 at 7:31 pm #365640

    <em>@unleashit 206325 wrote:</em><blockquote>… But for one thing, the css from from the plugins folder is always being included. IMO, it’s fine if the “blank” template has some html/css to start out. I like that in many cases it is indeed a faster way to get started with a design. But what I can’t get myself to really like is the idea of having to always “override” the css from another templates.css file. I’d rather just have direct access to the file and make my changes and additions there. …</blockquote>

    I just started with v2 and used the PurityII at the beginning… now i tried the T3 BLANK template and watched the tutorials and followed the wiki template tutorial. But i really wonder why there is the double loading of all CSS files? Amongst all this flexibility and avoiding of unneeded code :-* … Why is all the CSS loaded from the system folder twice ??!?!!?!? >:( Sorry, i dont get the idea, did i miss something obvious?

    Sherlock Friend
    December 8, 2010 at 3:46 am #365698

    Dear rexkramer,

    I am not sure when you said “all CSS Loaded from the system folder twice”,Maybe they have same names but from different folders,Please check it carefully .

    veeco Friend
    December 8, 2010 at 4:51 am #365725

    <em>@rexkramer 207138 wrote:</em><blockquote>I just started with v2 and used the PurityII at the beginning… now i tried the T3 BLANK template and watched the tutorials and followed the wiki template tutorial. But i really wonder why there is the double loading of all CSS files? Amongst all this flexibility and avoiding of unneeded code :-* … Why is all the CSS loaded from the system folder twice ??!?!!?!? >:( Sorry, i dont get the idea, did i miss something obvious?</blockquote>

    override CSS is one of the method commonly use, especially with T3 ver 2.0, if you like to have only one template.css you might copy all the the css in system folder to your template folder… but if you have upgrade make sure you redo the process.

    having 2 template.css in T3 have pro and con:
    pro: if there’s something wrong with your new CSS structure you might revert back to base themes. (unless you’re using SVN) , usually when it comes to browser compatibility you will edit lot of CSS
    con: it will make your overall filesize bigger.. but it should not significant compare to other element such us images, etc.

    “Why is all the CSS loaded from the system folder twice ??!?!!?!?” <– this not happening to me.. do you refer to T3 Blank ? or one of JA club templates ?

    hope this help

    korb Friend
    December 8, 2010 at 7:33 am #365749

    That is the way Joomla! works in fact. template.css in any template to override core Joomla! system template.css.

    T3 Framework only puts some modularity into place and adds compression features.

    I hope this makes some more sense 😉
    D

    rexkramer Friend
    December 10, 2010 at 12:45 pm #366161

    Sorry, i think i was not clear enough… the general CSS usage is not the question here. I am firm with that.
    I am talking of the T3 blank template and the tutorials about creating a template on this BLANK framework.

    I would not complain anything, if the CSS files from the JA system plugin would serve as a BACKUP or REFERENCE. But when I follow the tutorial and I copy the minimum file structure to begin a NEW template… i would expect my template will start with the CSS files in MY TEMPLATE folder. The real or acceptable overriding happens to me on theme-variations and user-local themes.

    As far as i can see, ALL CSS files from the system plugin are loaded everytime!? No matter if I have all of them in MY TEMPLATE folder structure. IMHO, THIS IS TOTAL OVERKILL – NOT OVERRIDING. Sorry, but this can´t be the final solution. Nice to have minimize and compression features, no doubt about it. The current scenario COULD NOT EXIST without this additional helpers. The file count and requests are rediculous high.

    veeco Friend
    December 10, 2010 at 6:16 pm #366193

    @rex.. yes i agree with you.. but IMO for T3 V.2 this is how they way it goes.. the pros come with the cons…
    this thread discuss about overriding “the skeleton” while your comment is more about resource usage..

    of course there are solution and hope JA team can do something about it… mash up all the template.css into and write to one static template.css (so in the next request… joomla only load this 1 template.css only), then minimize and compress it… with other css.. this should be not a hard task..

    but if you talk about resource usage, there’s still homework for JA team to make T3 more perfect.. you might join the discussion here:
    http://www.joomlart.com/forums/topic/t3-framework-is-a-step-in-the-wrong-direction/

    like i said on that thread: the idea is great, the ambitious is great… the potential is awesome… just hope the implementation follows… go go go joomlart for 2011 !

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  veeco 14 years ago.

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